After walking away from his corporate life, Jonathan set out on a six-year journey across the world—and within himself. This episode explores how surrender, trust, and grace led him from searching for freedom to living his purpose.
What would you do if you left everything behind to travel the world and find yourself? And what if you then began trusting whatever life presented—without question—saying yes to it all?
That’s exactly what Jonathan did.
In this special episode, the tables turn. Founder of the Center for Transformational Coaching, Leon VanderPol, interviews Jonathan Hermida, host of The Deep Coach Podcast and Managing Director of the Center, about his own journey of awakening and surrender.
Jonathan shares how he went from living a life of default—driven by success, approval, and survival—to leaving behind his corporate job, his home, and the familiar world he knew in search of truth and freedom.
His story takes us across continents and through profound inner transformation: from heartbreak and mindfulness to plant medicine, love, and finding his purpose through service.
It’s a conversation about grace, courage, and the deep trust that arises when we let life lead.
⏰ Timestamps
🔗 Connect with Jonathan
[00:00:00]
Jonathan: I come to experience this feeling of, or waking up to the reality in myself that I'm, I'm this fish in a fishbowl now aware that there's a vast ocean out there. So before I was this fish in a fishbowl, just happy to be in a fishbowl playing the game of the fishbowl, knowing the rules of the fishbowl.
But I'm aware that, holy crap, I'm not only in a fishbowl, but there's a vast ocean out there that I really crave to experience and I have no way to access it. And seemingly, and so this, this, it, it's almost like the degree of suffering increased exponentially as a result.
Welcome to the Deep Coach, the podcast where we explore the transformational journeys that shape us and that propel us to change the world. I'm your host, Jonathan Hermida, and in each episode we sit down with those who have journeyed into the depths of spiritual transformation and who are now reshaping the world through their presence and their work.
In listening to these incredible human [00:01:00] beings, you'll find insight, inspiration, and practical tools to support your journey as a coach and as a human being. Today's guest is well me. We're turning the tables in this episode and finally putting me in the proverbial hot seat, and I'm excited for it. Leon VanderPol, the founder of the center, is interviewing me and he's been a long time mentor and friend, so it was really cool to be on the receiving end of his questions.
We talk about a lot of things and cover a lot of ground.
We go into what triggered my own transformational journey and how my degree of suffering actually increased after my initial awakening. We talk about my travels around the world over a six year period and my entrepreneurial journey starting three different ventures, all of which eventually culminating in my journey back to the center nine years after graduating from the DCI to become the managing director.
I'm an open book and I think you'll find that to be true when you listen. I hope parts of my journey inspire you in ways big or small. So without further ado, let's get into it.
Leon: So the other day I [00:02:00] was actually thinking about that every hero's journey, like it begins with the hero being in a kind of world. And I was thinking about Frodo Baggins and Billbo Baggins, you know, from the Lord of the Rings. And I was thinking of, um, Luke Skywalker and even Dorothy before she went on her journey outta Kansas. You know, Dorothy was like Luke. They were both this boring kind of blase world of just monotony in the days being the same fro and Bilbo baggins living in the Shire, where life was really comfortable, like really good. They didn't really have to leave, like everything was ordered and organized. I always liked these images of what happens, what, what life is like for the hero before they venture out. On this great transformational journey. 'cause that's ultimately what we're here to talk about is a story of transformation and, and not just on the external world, but a story of transformation [00:03:00] on the internal plane. So we're gonna put you as the hero in our story today, Jonathan, and we want to explore that world that was yours. That you obviously, you may not have come from a world that was comfortable. You may not have come from a world that was just monotonous and the same and kind of dreary. You may have had your own kind of world, but it's really helpful to just get a sense of what that was before you really kind of embarked on this great adventure of transformation. So yeah, let's, let's start with, with your world.
My world.
You know, it's interesting the framing that you framed here, because my hero's journey did take off and it was both an external and internal journey and we'll get to that. But prior to the onset of that, I would say I was living a li a life of default. Not just default in the sense of, you know, what was given to me, but default also in the sense of what [00:04:00] my psychology, my psychology was in survival mode Okay. up.
And so I grew up in a really tumultuous, uh, home environment where there was a lot of, uh, lack of emotional regulation on both my parents' side and just a lot of, uh, dysfunction happening. And so when I say a life of default in, in a psychologically protective way, I mean my mind started to create masks and armor to protect that which little me was not wanting to, willing to able to confront both in terms of who my parents were and how they were, but also who I thought I was.
There was a, a lot of shame that I didn't realize I had. I, later on, I, I was able to use, you know, tap into that emotion in that word, but there was a lot of em, shame that I was living with. So my default world looked like a lot of, I was living in Miami, so a lot of partying, a lot of womanizing, a lot of, [00:05:00] you know, just distracting in every possible way.
I guess living a lot away, a a lot of young people live perhaps, but for me it was, it wasn't really working, it was just doing what I can do to find a sense of self, any sense of self I can grab hold of. And at that time it was very, uh, externally driven for sure.
yeah. You're speak. Can you say a little bit more? I'm, I'm, I'm kind of curious about a few pieces of that. The dysfunction, of course, that leads to a, you said this kind of survivor mode. Take us into the, that dysfunction and, and these, these layers of armor that you felt you had to develop as, you know, as you said about the kind of the, the exuberance of youth, the sowing of the wild oats.
You're right. That can be a fairly common experience for many youngins. But
looking at it from that lens of the, the armor and the survivor, you know, what was going on, what was going on there?
I re, I remember there was a moment when I was [00:06:00] 10, I went to a dance and I recall, you know, I guess a lot of young boys and stuff feel a lot of, you know, uh, fear related to dancing and dancing with girls at that time. But there was something that ha it was almost like that moment in time was a transition from innocence into self-consciousness in a way that felt really vivid for me.
I was very carefree the first 10 years of my life, and that was one of those moments where I'm like, okay. There is a me, there's a them. I need to protect this me, I need to show up as a certain type of me to get acceptance and approval and love. And, and that was coming a lot from just, there's a, there's a term that I also discovered later on in my journey called, it's a strong word or strong term called emotional incest.
Okay.
Jonathan: And this was a, this is a term that I associate with how my parents were with me and my brothers, meaning they didn't have, they used us like quite [00:07:00] actively in order to get their emotional needs met without sort of our, uh. Volition without our approval. And so using a lot of guilt, using a lot of manipulation in order to, um, have us be in the way that they wanted us to be.
And so that, all of that just started to really mess with me again. In retrospect, I'm seeing this psychologically in a way that I felt I had to protect, unknowingly. And so trying to fit in, trying to find that sense of approval, uh, throughout my youth, and little by little that self preservation created really strong identities around the cool guy and around, you know, being in sports and, and chasing girls and that had momentary, uh, sort of it worked in moments and pockets, but in reality it was, I was piling on.
This, dam of emotions that I was unknowingly un able and unwilling to confront and face and feel.
[00:08:00] Of course, and, and growing up in an environment in which the parental pair are not demonstrating a capacity to express emotion in a healthy, in a healthy way. You're not gonna necessarily know what to do with it as it's piling on you. So naturally you're gonna find some of those outlets for it, that allow for you to feel differently, but also express differently at the same time, as you said, kind of putting up certain levels of armor or personas or masks that you know, wanna show the world that you're a certain way. Yeah.
Y yeah, there's like a, there's like a combination of core personality mixed in with, uh, environment growing up in Miami. All of these com, you know, the mind uses whatever it has access to in order to protect itself. And so, you know, my. Particular self preservation mechanisms are a result of the environment that I was in.
Of course. And so, uh, yeah, it's quite, it's, it's really, um, it worked [00:09:00] until it didn't.
And that's the moment. Right. Okay, so then there was a, and now it's not working. Was that a moment or was that. Like an event or
was that a process?
Yeah.
There was an event, so part of the growing up in Miami and, and being the womanizer and all of that, it was, I was with a group. You, you attract a group of friends that kind of are on a similar wavelength and so. We were kind of sleeping around with each other's, not girlfriends, but like, you know, kind of everybody.
It was a bit of a sort of hodgepodge, everybody kind of going everywhere and, and all of that, which again, when you're a young guy, get, you know, you're in the moment and, and, and stuff like that. And there's an aspect of it that, you know, that, that, that, that young man enjoys. Having said that, it was very dysfunctional.
Very dysfunctional, and also over, over consuming alcohol, getting into drugs, you know, going from late high school into early college. It, it just really became unsustainable. You know, just really experimenting with a lot of weed and cocaine and, you know, [00:10:00] those kind of things. And so there was a moment where I slept with my best friend at the Time's, ex-girlfriend, that then blew it.
It was like that breakup. It wasn't just a breakup of a friendship, it somehow accessed that armor and those masks. In a way that it all shattered, it all sha it just like the dam that it was all holding back, just, and so I was confronted with quite a bit of dysfunction that was inside that I didn't realize I had.
And it was, I didn't know what to do with it. I, I, I was overwhelmed. I was, scared. there was a fear there. And so I remember going to my mom and saying, Hey, I need to go see someone. There's something not right here. I just feel, uh, you know, emotionally I can't handle this psychologically. I can't handle this.
And so, thankfully she did have access to a therapist that she recommended to me that then was the first person that introduced me to mindfulness, cognitive behavior therapy, these tools and [00:11:00] modalities. I remember being in the seat with him and it was the first time in my entire life.
Sitting with him as he was guiding me into a presence, you can say where it was the first time I experienced a difference between me and my thoughts.
That separation became intoxicating for me. They became the thing I began to chase insatiably through books, through meditation, through yoga, through videos. Anything I can grab hold of to, to give me a taste of that little momentary freedom that I was experiencing from that gap in that separation, from that dysfunctional identity I had grown attached to over, two decades of life.
That's fascinating, isn't it?
That there was just this moment that broke it all open, but the awareness that came in strikes me. 'cause many people are confronting all kinds of [00:12:00] tumultuous events in their life, but they don't necessarily, in a sense, break them open in which this self-awareness of say, certain armor or certain dysfunctions or certain emotional needs, not being, now that awareness isn't necessarily there. So I'm kind of looking at that saying, okay, but something happened within you in that time. That it wasn't just that there was a tumultuous event. It broke you open in a, in, in, in a vast degree of, to vast degree of self-awareness.
Yeah, it, it, it's quite interesting. I have two older brothers, we're quite close in age. I attribute it to Grace because I can't tell you why all three of us coming from the same core wounds, you can say the same environment, all took very different paths to dealing with coping with.
Same dysfunction. And also, even though at times, you know, I had that [00:13:00] activating event, but there were opportunities for both of them also to go down a different path, you can say. But for whatever reason, the way my mind was oriented at the time, the psychology, the moment that a certain disposition led me into this path and because I guess I was hypervigilant, I was very self-conscious, that self-conscious, that hyper self focus it, I was already attuned to being quite self-aware because I'm so hyper self-focused, if that makes Yes. You know, so it was a bit of a turning my biggest wound into a superpower unknowingly.
So you're saying your brothers growing up in the same environment didn't necessarily have that, I'm gonna call it an awakening
because I think that's a, a really appropriate term. Right. An awakening to a sense of self. Other than my thoughts other than the identity that I have created over the years. You know, we talk about that in, in the hero's journey too, [00:14:00] that this point of awakening can look very different for different people and it's not always clear what exactly triggers it in some and not in so many others.
As you said, your brother's same environment, likely also experiencing various tumultuous events in my life.
My guess is they're not just going through life's smooth sailing while you're going through all of this. They're likely experiencing their own, you know, challenges, let's put it that way.
And yet something something. And not that there's an answer around this, but I always just find it fascinating that in some it just something clicks and something opens in that breakdown.
There's an immense breakthrough and this is what was happening for you in that moment.
Yeah. That, that, that is why I call it grace. What else? You know, I, I don't know. Uh, same thing with, you know, I don't attri, I don't associate myself as a hero in that sense, like Luke and Frodo and all these people. But there is something that was destined for them, [00:15:00] you know? And I, and that's a big word, I don't mean that I'm destined per se, but, but there was something in that vein that has taken me down this path.
Well, knowing you as I do, I have the sense of destiny. We can explore that because your life from that moment on went in some very different directions. Tell us about the corporate world and the ecstasy of leaving.
Yeah. Yeah. So something happened when I was exploring in this way.
As I was exploring myself, I come to discover or I come to experience this feeling of, or waking up to the reality in myself that I'm, I'm this fish in a fishbowl now aware that there's a vast ocean out there. So before I was this fish in a fishbowl, just happy to be in a fishbowl playing the game of the fishbowl, knowing the rules of the fishbowl.
But I'm aware that, holy crap, I'm not only in a fishbowl, [00:16:00] but there's a vast ocean out there that I really crave to experience and I have no way to access it. And seemingly, and so this, this, it, it's almost like the degree of suffering increased exponentially as a result.
you're looking through the glass of the fishbowl
at the world, beyond sensing what's there, but not able to actually move into it.
' cause now I've tasted it, I've tasted that freedom. I, I, I've had glimpses of what it's like to be in that vast ocean. And yet I feel constrained and confined to this fishbowl. And so I started to feel quite suffocated. I never left for college. I last stayed in Miami. And so as a result, just of the, the, the avenue that I was in.
So my awakening happened in college, and so I was suffocated within myself. I was suffocated in my environment. And around that time, of course, I had to have a job. I had to make a living in, in my way. And so I was working in a corporate environment business B2B sales, literally cold [00:17:00] calling in the summer heat of Miami business to business in a suit.
You know, it was, it was a, a wild moment as I was, in this process of awakening and somehow, some way I was hitting my quota every month. I don't know, I, whatever I was doing, I was doing right. I was getting my numbers, I was doing what I needed to do, and I, I then it became a game. Can I hit it as soon as possible so then I can focus on other things?
I wasn't trying to exceed my quota, I was just trying to hit my quota. And so then I, I would, I would spend hours on end in the spirituality, psychology, and philosophy section of the bookstores, consuming everything I can consume in that vein, and then going to these docs and, and in front of these lakes and practicing meditation there on a disc and listening to guided practices, John Kaba, uh, Eckhart, you know, there's all these different people that, uh, were really influential for me.
And so I spent my time really trying to, to maintain [00:18:00] that separation or, stabilize the awareness that I was experiencing more and more of in that time. But then that impacting though your capacity to do this, this, this sales job? Was, was, or were you like compartmentalizing
or was there some kind of overlap that was, you know, how, how, how did that go?
I, I was living compartmentalized completely that I was sneaking away, quote unquote. I would go, I, I would still like, be social and see my friends. I didn't separate myself fully, but for example, I would be, I would have a, a, a party or something that evening just before I would go to meditation class that there wasn't much of in two, 2009, 2010.
And, I would practice meditation and then I would go to the party and kind of just do my thing. And so it was kind of these two different worlds that I was living kind of side by side at the same time. And I, I don't know what was driving me, uh, in terms of how I would still get those. I, I, I wasn't sort of throwing out my responsibilities, but I was [00:19:00] also just feeling more and more disconnected from it.
And so finally it got to a breaking point where I was like, I cannot continue living in this way. Something needs to change. But what was it about the way, I mean, what you're painting for me is a guy who's out there hitting his quotas,
which sounds like you know, the most natural thing in the world. I'm out there working. But when you say living this way, what is the way that you were living that you couldn't bear living by anymore?
I was still in the environment in which all of my wounds took place. And so everything in my environment from my parents, my family, my, my friends, even everything was a reminder of that old self that I was trying to separate myself from. So, and at that time I was a bit doing a bit of open heart surgery on myself, you can say.
And so it, I was just extra vulnerable and extra exposed and extra susceptible and frustrated with any relapse that I would have towards that old identity. And that environment, the sales environment was what it was. Strengthening the [00:20:00] old identity, or at least trying to
was all mixed. It was all part of the same, it was all sa the same, the wor it was kind of like this, this, this old, um. Path that if I continue going down this path of sales, I would basically know what my, how my life would unfold. You know, I, okay. I would continue getting promoted and it would look this way and I'll send my kids to this school and I'll marry this type of per, it just still felt like I was in that
Leon: Yes. Right.
Jonathan: and I, I, that terrified me.
I was like, I can see your whole life mapped out to grave
kind of thing. Following the steps. Check in the boxes.
yeah,
Yeah. So you saw that in that world.
absolutely. If I continue down this road, the path, once I started to see if I continue down this path, where, where is it gonna Yeah. So by night you're experiencing, well, let's call it by the dark side, you're experiencing these openings of self,
right? The awareness of this [00:21:00] other world that beckons you both inside yourself and possibly beyond, right? The external. And then here you are, let's call it in the fishbowl by day,
Yeah.
you
know, doing the work you need to do to pay for the bills and put, you know, food on the table and all those things that you, quote unquote should be doing to live, you know, the responsible life as a good citizen, but it is just not, it is not working.
So there's a there's a massive tension there between those two images that you're presenting. And so this is what I'm assuming was kind of the, the breaking point. There
was that decision I can no longer like this is, I cannot abide by this any longer.
Yeah. Internally I said F this. I'm done. I'm done. I remember crying. I was in a car with a good friend of mine. 'cause at this point I had transitioned out of. No, I was still in the same job, but I, I was just like, I, I got, I was in tears and I was like, I can't, I can't stay here anymore. I just, it's hard to express.
It was, it was, I was continuing to feel [00:22:00] like, like I was drowning, like I was suffocating. I couldn't breathe. And I was like, I have to leave. I have to leave. I don't know where, I don't know to what degree, but I have to get the hell outta here. And more than just outta the job.
oh, out of the, the environment I had needed to get outta Miami, period, period, I needed to get outta Miami.
This was, I can't stay here. I can't, I will somehow die if I stay here, it felt like.
And so I don't know how I landed on where I landed. It was kind of like a series of sort of serendipities. I was thinking Spain, but then somehow I landed on, on Latin America and I decided, you know what? I'm gonna gather the savings that I've accumulated up until this point.
And I'm just gonna go, I'm just gonna go. I don't know what I'm gonna do. I don't know how it's all gonna lead, but. Maybe I'll volunteer a little bit here. Maybe I'll vol. I, I kind of started to create a path of sort of pockets where I can land in South America, but I was like, let me just go and see where it all takes me.
Yeah, but I
love it. You had the strength there. Like this is the thing, so many people ignore that impulse to do what you [00:23:00] did. So many people are overridden by fear
of the unknown and the uncertainty of doing exactly what you did. somehow found the courage, the strength, the wherewithal, the belief in self that this is possible.
Like just go and then you did.
Leon: yeah, yeah. I it's partly attributed to an underdeveloped prefrontal cortex that doesn't fully develop to your 27 I,
Jonathan: so I was like, okay, I can get the hell outta here.
Well, that may be part of it. True, but there's still
many that are in that same,
you know, world
space that you are at the same age in their early twenties, mid twenties, just making decisions that
just align to what the world tells 'em that they should be doing and living into the expectations of their families and societies and cultures. And you know, here you are, you know, you're feeling the same pressures,
but you're deciding it is time. And you did,
and you did. [00:24:00] And yeah. Yeah. And so finally, I, I said, screw it. And I that, so the, I shared it with you before I have yet to experience the degree of euphoria I felt the day that I quit that job. So I quit the job and I got in the car. It was like internally and externally the heavens opened up. There was, and it was like this, this unshackling, not just of, it was unshackling of that sort of path of life that I was on unshackling also to who I thought I needed to be.
It was unshackling. In the mind, body and soul. It was an absolute liberation feeling of absolute liberation. Like the, I'm no longer confined. I'm no longer restricted. I have di doven out into the vast ocean. And what's I, what's funny is intuitively what I decided to do in that moment was I [00:25:00] literally went from the parking lot where I work to go get a kayak to go out in the ocean.
It was, it was, I, I needed to be out there in that vastness, and that's exactly what I did. And I was in tears. I was just, every cell in my body was lit up. It was lit up. It was lit up. Like, like, oh, like this is ex you've d It couldn't be a bigger confirmation that you did exactly what your soul needed to do and life said, you did it.
You did it.
Leon: yes.
Jonathan: it was incredible. And it was incredible, you know? And, and, yeah. And so then I, a couple months later I left,
Literally the water of the fishbowl became the water of the ocean.
merged.
Yep.
Yeah.
The walls gone
Gone.
the horizon. Infinite
Yeah.
in that moment.
Isn't it something?
Isn't it something when [00:26:00] everything rings, if this is the greatest truth, you are living it go,
Leon: Yeah.
Jonathan: right? Yeah.
Because it's a, it's a, it's a oneness with not my, not just myself, but with life and, and it seems like what life want, wanted and wants for me. That's what that felt like of why it was so euphoric.
That's an interesting thought, isn't it? What, what, what life wants for me, which mirrors what I want,
really want in life, how disconnected we get from that sense of what life wants for me. And trusting that it mirrors really mirrors what I want for and from life.
Yeah.
So there you are, first paddling in his kayak on the ocean, but then a bigger leap,
Yeah.
and this took you around the world. [00:27:00]
What were some of the biggest challenges you faced in this journey of just venturing out? Because. From my view, this journey of transformation that you're on didn't just end the day
you ventured. In fact, we could probably say that was the day it really, really catalyzed. And then of course, as we know, the challenges, the trials, they continue.
Yeah.
out there in the world and then what? What are you facing?
I externally though the world is unfolding quite beautifully. You know, the, the, I have this story of the first place I landed when I got to Latin America was La Paz, Bolivia, the capital of Bolivia. Actually. La Paz has two capital, SRA and la So one of them, and the first person I come into contact with is in my hotel.
I meet this five foot, one 33-year-old curly-haired blonde woman that was on the 13th month [00:28:00] of an around the world trip. And I, I, again, I had nobody in my envi environment that had left home and that was backpacking in this sort of way. And so when I run into this young woman that's doing this, I'm like, you can do this.
I, I was starting to encounter, that was my first point of contact of a different way of living and being. That ended up being, there were so many of those examples later on in, in South America, of course, of just people living so many different ways. So my mind was just getting blown open by all the possibilities that existed in this world that were far beyond what I thought it had to look like and be like.
And so externally that was just absolutely incredible and wonderful and stimulating in every possible way because I was experiencing something new over and over again. Now internally, it was very tumultuous still because I was, I was the, the, the reflex was still to protect and preserve, you know, the, the sort of wounded self within.
And [00:29:00] so I was confronted with that over and over again, you know, the, the, the feelings of shame and Yeah, and, and, and I was still unable to articulate it fully. So I was just continuing to be in this process of, of feeling into and, and, and sensing.
Leon: So all those kind of core wounds were very, very much circulating, but I was now in the process of really intentionally confronting them and facing them and leaning into them, uh, throughout this process.
Jonathan: And, and so I, I made sure to put myself, you know, what was, let me take a step back. I, I do feel like. I've only made one real decision in my life is kind of how I associate it. The first 21, 22 years of my life, I was living a life of default. So the choices I was making was coming from that wound itself and that sort of self preservation.
The only real decision I feel I made is that moment I quit that job and decided to go backpacking because the rest of my journey up until today [00:30:00] has been an unfolding and a saying yes to what life has put in front of me.
Like a series of invitations that you're
saying yes to. Yes, a series of invitations. So what was initially driving me was just healing.
Can I put, can I continue to heal that which I have inside of me knowing that I had to, I had to. So in my time in South America, I was putting myself in all these situations where I can heal that or I can be, or I can create, uh, an environment that allows for further healing.
Leon: What did that look like?
Jonathan: yeah, so I lived in, uh, ANCO Yoga Park for many months 45 minutes outside of Buenos Aires where it was, uh, it's interesting 'cause it was a Hari Krishna camp, but it was very, it wasn't sort of, um, Hari Krishna forward.
It was very much secular still in terms of the international group that was there. And so we were practicing yoga and having deep philosophical conversations and I was, it was such a perfect environment for me in that time to have these deep [00:31:00] conversations with people and, and have the space and time to, outwork, continue outwork and heal that which was inside So this is giving you an opportunity to speak to, to give voice to because I'm, I'm kind of curious how the healing itself is transpiring in this community of people.
It sounds like environment, part of it, but what the conversations, the, yeah, just being able to share and talk to these core parts of yourself, these wounded parts of yourself.
Is that sort of what was facilitating the healing?
Yeah, there were a couple things that were facilitating the healing. One was my own internal work in terms of learning to come into acceptance with those parts of myself. So active self-forgiveness, active forgiveness of of others, of my parents, um, softening and releasing those tensions in my body. Uh, giving voice, you know, in conversations like you're mentioning with other people and, and being able to, to speak vulnerably about my own journey.
So not needing to hide [00:32:00] anymore, any aspect of myself being able to put everything front and center and plant medicines played a big role in all of this as well. So I had several journeys, uh, in my time in South America. One of them with, with SCA in the desert. Uh, several with ayahuasca deep in the heart of the Amazon.
And what these medicines allowed for me or did for me is it cut through those reflexes of self preservation where I, I would sort of contract and hold and protect and it exposed me to that which I was not wanting to face. And so I, by the time I was completing my yearlong adventure in South America, that's when I did the ayahuasca.
And I remember sitting in the circles in the, in the sacred circles that were created. And I would speak to the medicine prior to taking it. Whatever you have to show me whatever. I have an inside bring it. I want to see it all. I wanna experience it all. I wanna move through it all. So whatever it is, bring it, bring it, bring it.
So it [00:33:00] was like this, this facing, uh, all of it, like looking at it in the face, the, the sort of devil within as I would sort of probably. All the shadowy, sticky, dark, raw, real stuff.
come at me. Yeah. Bring it on. Yeah. And so it, it brought, it wasn't as intense as perhaps in terms of the, it was quite intense, but it was, you know, it's just all, you know, 'cause what are, what ultimately, when, when you come down to it, what are we running away from?
We're running away from a, a bodily feeling in our sensation of somewhat discomfort that we're giving a name of an emotion or something, or some sort of thoughts that are producing those same emotions or feelings. So when I was able to break it down, what I'm really, truly, like, afraid of and, and resisting, I was like, okay, so thoughts and feelings.
Leon: I,
Jonathan: I can face those.
Yes. Right,
because you've experienced that disconnect too, between thoughts and [00:34:00] feelings, right? The
sense of I am not that.
that's the key. That's the key. What makes it so difficult to deal with is when we attach an identity to those parts of ourself.
Yeah, and they can be so consuming that it's hard to get a sense of separation, a certain emotion. Shame, for example,
is so fully and utterly embodied in those moments.
There's no cell in your body that is not alive with shame, that it's very difficult then to say, well, I am not my shame. Or
maybe it's an intellectual thought, but the actual experience of a sense of separation of myself from that fully embodied sense of shame,
that's very difficult for people to actually experience.
It is. And it's painful. It's painful because the, the, the, remember these core wounds were created by the mind to protect the most vulnerable parts of ourselves. And so if we were by, by releasing those protective mechanisms, it feels like death to that part of our mind. I can't let go of control if I let go of control, and if I release this [00:35:00] armor and these masks, what will happen to Right, You know?
right. What will happen to me?
Yes. That's a question. Then. Who am I without that?
Right? Yeah.
And what will the world think of me? And so yeah, better layer on that mask again,
Yeah. So a new identity was forming in my year in South America that allowed for, uh, a greater softening, which, which that intuition that I had as a young person to leave my environment was quite accurate.
Not everybody has, uh, the potential to leave their environment, but it is quite helpful actually to have separation from that environment that created those core wounds to, to create a new experience of yourself and begin embodying those deeper states that allow you then to come back into those environments
Yes. In
other words, in a sense, the hero does need to venture beyond the known shores. You're right, there's
something about removing themselves from a certain environment in which all of that has been the Petri dish in which it was created.
To explore new [00:36:00] worlds in which, as you said, you're meeting people from all different walks who have chosen very different paths than the norm that you'd encountered.
So you're seeing all of that possibility. You're seeing possibility arising in yourself through your healing adventures. You're beginning to understand that there is so much more for you than those wounds are wanting to show is is there for you, and to do your right to do that in the environment in which it was cultivated, all of that, it's very, very challenging.
So this move to the world,
Leon: huh?
Jonathan: It's like just a big breath, isn't it? It's like,
Leon: ah,
Jonathan: Incredible.
ooh.
Incredible.
Yeah.
I can now begin to really be me.
Leon: Yeah.
Jonathan: Yeah.
Because also I, what it, what that gives you? What that gave me was now I'm only confronted with what's really truly inside of me and my shit, rather than also contending with like the, you know, as my parents are interacting with me, confronting with that stuff and my brothers and my friends and I'm kind [00:37:00] of the things that, the inputs that are coming at me and needing to sort of play defense, psychological defense.
Leon: yes.
Jonathan: Now I don't have any of those coming in. It's just my stuff. And so I get to which that stuff is my stuff, but at least I don't have what feels like an onslaught coming at me. I can just contend with what is inside of me, which is more than enough. I trust me.
Yeah, that's exactly it. There's like so much starts to appear,
so much starts to appear, and for many, it does feel quite overwhelming. It's almost like this sense of there's more and more coming. It's like, yeah, it's not actually more and more it's always been there.
It's just more and more is trickling into your field of awareness and being invited as you use the word invitation, invited to do the work, to heal that.
so over time, this healing, and you've mentioned this to me, is that this drive to heal began to shift into a, a desire to serve [00:38:00] and take me into that
Yeah, when I was getting to the end of my time in South America, I was also getting to the end of my, well, my finances in the bank account. And I was like, okay, I gotta figure something out. And along the way, this is how, it's just incredible when we really pay attention there, the universe is leaving us bread crumbs.
I really do believe that all the time. You know, like, Hey, here, come this way, come this way. And we we're either paying attention and noticing them or, or we're not. And that's okay there. It's, it's quite, um, you know, life I feel is, is um, will give us many opportunities and many avenues for that. So the bread crumbs that I started to receive was, Hey, go to South America.
You can teach English there, make some money. And I I, I random never. Heard of South. South, sorry, I said South America. South Korea.
South Korea, yes.
Korea, yes. And you can teach English there. And I hadn't really heard much about South Korea before, and I kind of dismissed it the [00:39:00] first time, the second time. But towards the end of my travels, as folks kept talking about South Korea, I started to tune in and listen because hey, there, there's an avenue potentially for me to be, continue to be outside in the world, make some money, and, and continue going down my path, the path that I was on.
And so eventually I looked into it and, and sure enough, it seemed like a, a good opportunity and, and I ended up applying to, to a role and I got it. And I went to South Korea right after South America, and it was in South Korea while I was there, where for the first time there was enough inner strength and fortitude to stop focusing just on myself.
And there was a natural shift to how can I begin serving others. From this place, you know, there's something that I've been going through. There is some, uh, an impulse, a desire to help others that may be going through something similar.
At the time, it was 2012, coaching wasn't yet really that ubiquitous out in the world.
It was still quite nascent, quite new,
Leon: [00:40:00] Especially in Asia.
Jonathan: especially in Asia. And, and so when I first discovered coaching, it was, I think through a YouTube, and it was one of the worst Tony Robbins videos. I don't mind Tony Robbins. He's great. He is, he is. Got his, his place. But that particular video felt like he was shaming some person in the crowd.
And I was like, what is this? You know, like it felt really disconnected from what I thought somebody being of service should be. But somehow that video led me to another one. And I discovered coaching as a, as a vehicle, as an
Leon: Yeah.
Jonathan: And I was like, oh, oh, oh, this is interesting. Okay, I'm, I'm, I'm interested.
And I started researching programs and it wasn't long before I found the International Coach Academy. And this is where serendipity comes and I notice all the decisions.
this is where I journey begins.
This is where your and I journey begins. And that's what's incredible about life. When you take a step back, all the micro decisions that led both of us to make, to [00:41:00] get to that point in time, not that we were both sort of destined to be there necessarily in that way, but maybe we were, but there were many, there are many different sort of simultaneous destinies that are happening in people's lives.
This was one of them. And so you were on the faculty and I was in South Korea. You were in Taiwan and. Thankfully, because I was really drawn to you and your presence and your way of being, and, and I got to attend all of your classes because we're in the same time zone. And, and that's what I did. And that, and so as I was engaging in those, you had just opened the doors to the center.
Uh, this was 2013 now. And so this, so this desire, this yearning now, there was, now there was a vehicle that I can hone that, which was emerging within me to be of service to others. And that vehicle was coaching,
Yeah.
And we had many long conversations in there too. Still about your own journey. So your own journey hasn't come to any kind of an end.
oh, I'm still on it.
Exactly. I mean now you're, it is almost like it's accelerating as you moved [00:42:00] into that coaching training. 'cause it's so much about cultivating greater self-awareness. But now we're invited to do it in concert with another human being.
Which seems to amplify something like it's one thing to be doing it on your own or maybe even in group collective situations,
but to be able to sit in these more intimate spaces and really reveal the life that is and is becoming, that's quite something.
And so there was, I recall from our conversations like this kind of acceleration or maybe, maybe deepening is a, I don't know which word, but there was something happening in that that was still really profound to your ongoing growth as, as a person like it, it wasn't at all near an end point for you. It was really still,
I, Oh yeah.
I really trying call it a middle point, but something really big was there.
Yeah, it was, I was still healing. Uh, very much so. And you know, I think to today there's still aspects of, of myself that I'm healing, but, but it was, it was the beginning process of the integration coming into integrity with my new self. And, [00:43:00] and, and so the conversation going into the center, the conversations with you, receiving mentorship and guidance and coaching from you and, and just being in that path of, of being a coach for others.
Was inviting me into greater and greater integration with myself, with that deeper self. Right? And, and so I had to sort of continue to see the places where I was lacking integrity. I was not in integrity with myself, and I was sort of, um, softening there or, or, or sort of, you know, refining those areas within myself.
Yeah, that's a good word. Integration, right? Because I remember, if I can share this,
there would be, there would be times when we would sit in conversation and in just long periods of deep, rich, sacred silence,
Yes.
where it was that opportunity for doing that integration work. But again, kind of in concert with another human being who's, who's holding an energetic space in which that integration work can really, really, really happen.
Yeah. There, there are two words that, that resonate for me in [00:44:00] this capacity. One is integration, the other one is calibration. So I was ca so I, it feels like in those spaces of silence, there was a calibration happening.
I use that word a lot too. Right? You're
calibrating to, well let you finish that sentence. I know what I would say. What would you say I
was calibrating to?
Yeah, I was, I was calibrating to, to my deeper sense of self and that which life needed of me in that moment in order to be that witch life required.
Yeah. Right. So this is interesting, isn't it? 'cause now we're talking about a pretty, pretty big shift in the, in the journey of, of, of awakening and transformation,
which is a movement from the focus on the need to heal
to a, a more intensive focus on what is it that is becoming in me, right? And recalibrating to those frequencies, vibrations, states of consciousness, whatever we want to call it. But that's a really vital pivot
that does happen for folk. And this is what it sounds like. This period was you, it's not that you said, you said you [00:45:00] ever stop healing. There are always gonna be aspects of our ego that. Call for our attention, but it usually comes a point, and it sounds like this was it for you, where there's, okay, I don't need to spend as much time in the quote unquote healing space,
Leon: Yeah,
Jonathan: but much more in this.
Okay, so what's coming alive in, in me and tapping into that?
yeah, yeah.
The, the, the final big domino related to my healing that then is, is really relevant to this journey and this process is still, up until this point in my time in South Korea, I, my relationship to women in the feminine was still, um, raw. So I, I, because I had sort of. No, nobody would say I was ever mean or cruel.
I was just my, my, I was just using women for my own sake, you know, in that, in that sort of sense. But I don't think I mistreated anybody really. And, and I have actually had conversations with past partners and stuff, and everybody is like, no, anything that you thought of, like, that's not the case. But I was doing such deep work and what I share with others [00:46:00] is, you, you, you, in order to really, you know, especially relationship healing, you can't heal relationship in isolation.
that can only be healed in relationship again. And so, and so you have to confront that, which, you know, inside of you, you're afraid of, So I was very much afraid of hurting, someone. Again, and, and I was, I did not trust myself in relationship. And so in that process in South Korea, I met several, you know, wonderful human beings that, you know, I, that were kind of wanting to get close to me.
And I, a part of me wanted to as well, but I couldn't, again, it felt like open heart surgery. And I, every time they got a little close, I was like, I can't. And I would push them away. And it got to a point where there was this one young woman that I was really close to, that if I took out a checklist of what I was looking for in someone, she checked every box.
And yet one day I went to kiss her and it felt like I was kissing my sister. And so that, that experience, I, I, I was like, what is going on with me? [00:47:00] Like, what, what, what is like, what is this? Like the, I was questioning everything and I was doubting myself and I was like, am I, am I not into women? Am I not, you know, like, Yeah. like, what is this all this?
What, is going on? Right? Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, this is weird. This is weird. But then something incredible happened and I, and I still get emotional about it because I don't know where this came from, but in my little apartment in South Korea, I would go into these spontaneous meditations. Again, I have no idea where they came from, but I would say out loud, I don't know who you are and I don't know where you are, but I want you to know that I'm here and I'm waiting for you.
And it was, it was almost like there was a, a part of my soul and my being that was sort of calibrated to a specific person that my being knew. And, and that sort of prayer meditation gave me a sense of peace and healing that allowed me to trust Now. Where [00:48:00] did this get? It was, it's incredible how life is and the journey unfold because my plan after South Korea was to go to India.
I had already gotten my visa for Americans. You have to get it far in advance. And so I was gonna spend six months to 12 months in India continuing my journey and seeing where that took me, that's where my tuition was taking me.
Now what happens is I get a phone call not too long, you know, within that period from my mom saying, Hey, I need you to come back home.
I was diagnosed with cancer. And so at that point already, I had matured enough on my journey to know that every part of my mind resisted going back home. I felt, I didn't felt, feel ready, but my soul, my being, knew I needed like, oh, I need to, I, not only do I need to go to be with her, but I need to go, this is where I need to go in order to really, fully to, I wouldn't wanna say, finalize a process, but really complete this complete the journey, right? The hero eventually returns
home. Yes. So on top of that part of my mind being like, oh shit, now I need to confront all this stuff [00:49:00] that I, you know, that I was, I felt comfortable in a space dealing with. I was also like, yeah, I guess the last place I expected to find a partner was in Miami, the pla You know, I just, what I, the way I was, my relationship to women in Miami and also the stereotype of Miami and women, you know, more, you know, sort of superficial and not really on a deeper path or journey.
And so I was like, yeah, I guess I have to put that on, on pause and, and just be with my mom, you know, and that's what it is. So I kind of surrendered that and I was like, I gotta go home. What's incredible about the journey home is many, many things are incredible about it. One is just the year, the final year and a half of my mom's life was that opportunity to begin
Mending that relationship a bit. 'cause I was her primary caretaker. And so, you know, it was, it was that journey of, of coming sort of into love and acceptance again with a, a core wound of mine in my mom. Uh, what's also incredible about that is that I met my now [00:50:00] wife, not in, in that time period again, un un unexpectedly.
That was the last thing I expected. But the first year of our relationship was the last year of my mom's life. And so it was unbelievable to have had the opportunity for both of them to have met each other and to have fallen in love with each other in the way that they did it. It, it's magical within the, the tragedy of it all and the grief of it all.
It was absolutely magical how that happened. Um, and I thank God every day for that because it was just, um, yeah, it was, it was, um, another example of grace coming into It is. I'm almost sitting with this, almost, almost like she called you home just for that union to happen. And I don't just mean the union between Nati and your mom, but the union between you and Nati. That
union to happen.
yeah, yeah. I felt that way. 'cause I wouldn't have gone home otherwise
Right.
Exactly. Isn't that? Isn't that it? Right. You are off to [00:51:00] a whole new
world. Yeah. So these were, so at that point I was, I was also maturing enough in myself to, to have these moments of, look, pay attention. Pay attention. You didn't want to come here and look what, how life is unfolding. at the configuration that is happening.
yeah. So even though things on the external are not happening the way your mind wants them to, they're happening exactly how they need to happen.
So I was reminding myself over and over again in these moments where the external was not meeting, what my internal expectation was to recalibrate back into understanding, Yeah. 'cause you have to now just trust the invitations, right? You've been receiving these
invitations, which you see now, like breadcrumbs along the way.
Just keep trusting the invitations no matter what they appear to be.
Leon: yeah, yeah.
Jonathan: So this is where I really began truly living a life of surrender in that sense. You know, [00:52:00] I guess I was already, but it, it, it was, it, it was, um, my nervous system caught up.
Leon: Hmm.
Jonathan: Oh, you know, my nervous system caught up to it's, you don't need to get in, fight or flight mode in these moments of uncertainty.
And it's not like there were still period, you know, there, I, I share, uh, on my journey with others sometimes that there were many times on my journey financially where I felt like I was in this car going 90 miles per hour with the brakes out heading towards a cliff. So that, that, that's the experience. I imagine what the amygdala is, how the amygdala's reacting to it.
But within that sort of reaction, there was always a, I just know that there's gonna be ground on the other side. There was always a deeper voice telling me, just over and over, keep trusting, keep going. You're gonna be okay. And so every time that there was ground, when that, when I thought there was not gonna be ground was a moment, I would always pause and say, remember this moment?
Remember this moment?
That's it, [00:53:00] isn't it? There's ground when you wouldn't think there to be ground
and then, right. Okay. Now Venture Forth again. Into the groundless.
Exactly. And that's what life kept inviting me into. So that whether I went to, we went to Germany and my coaching practice took off there. Uh, and then I was like, okay, this is it. This is great. This is where I'm gonna sort, we're gonna set up more roots. Life brought us back home again, you know? And then I was like, okay.
And then a friend of mine said, Hey, you wanna run some retreats? Um, you know, for a group of friends of mine, over here in the Bay Area. And I go, okay, let's do it. And then that led to me starting, um, you know, this venture backed company that unexpectedly, you know, this was not, again, I was, at no point was I like, what am I gonna do?
You know, how, what business can I start and well, how can I sort of, I was never driven by that. I was never driven by that. It was just, how can I serve?
Right. And then this is it. It's almost like a partnership where life is forming now. Right? It's how can I serve as the request and life says, and here you go, right?
Here we go. This is where I.
[00:54:00] And you have to drop in two conventional ideas of success and failure in these things, right? You have to completely drop it. I'm assuming you had to face that, that too, this idea of, oh, something went this far and therefore it's a success, or something went this
far and therefore it's a failure because some standard of success deems it this way or that way. Right? You have to drop, that's the surrender piece. You have to drop even any ideas of that so that you can just keep showing up to what life is asking of you.
yeah, yeah. I understood quickly that it was my curriculum regardless and, and, uh, a business partner of mine struggled more with the eventual, me stepping away and, and that business not necessarily going where we thought it was going to be. I was never attached for whatever reason, to whatever out.
It was just where I need to serve. I need to be here to it, right? So you're, you're already in that place of having dropped the attachment
to the outcome
that others or the world might deem to be the appropriate
or good outcome. [00:55:00] Yeah. And I was grateful to the learnings. I learned so much. I experienced so much. I was exposed to so much, and I was like, okay, great. That kind of gave me a toolkit to then start a next company. And I, I don't know, to be, again, I don't know where these, the desire to even start, the companies are coming from.
I kind of say that, you know, I, I wasn't like, you know, some people, especially in, in the west coast of America, uh, identify as an entrepreneur. So I am an entrepreneur and therefore I look for businesses to start. You know, it's kind of like a way of, of being, you can say I never identified as one, and yet I was starting these sort of different ventures.
There was something inside of me to start them, you know, and, and to, you know, and, and to see them through and, but your, i your identity is completely reshaped itself,
yeah.
right? This is the thing. It's not, it's not these labels that matter if you're showing up as you're saying, like the desires to serve.
Right.
Then the creative inspirational ideas just come in and you
move on what feels again right, and true and real Again, I guess you're listening for that kind of, all the bells are ringing kind of [00:56:00] feeling,
right? That's a whole different way of living in life
than labeling yourself as well, I'm an entrepreneur, or I'm a leadership coach, or I'm, you know, an executive of a company, or all those labels that we hold as, as our identity.
It's just dropping all of that. Right?
So if you were to say, well, you know, who am I today?
How, how might you answer that?
Leon: Mm-hmm.
Jonathan: It's funny, we use labels and, and I identities to, for others, you know, and, and to sort of signal, Hey, this is where I've been, this is kind of where I, what I, what I can do, you know, kind of thing. But, you know, internally I don't, I don't feel a, a, a attached to any sort of identity in that sort of way.
I, I, I just, I, I use labels 'cause they're useful for people, but I, I feel like I am living way more often than not. Just in alignment with my natural self and what life wants me to be. Kind of like, uh, a, [00:57:00] an oak tree doesn't think about what it needs to produce or an apple tree. It just kind of produces that, which it's meant to produce.
I kind of feel like I am just myself and I am producing that which I am meant to produce, for the world. And I have this other prayer that I say consistently and, and that's, dear God, please help me to get out of my own way so that I can be the vehicle that you need me to be. And that, that, that does it is everything for me because it's, it's beyond me.
It's just Who do you need me to be? where do I need to be? How do I need to be? You know, and, and what, what, what that does is it, I, I do have an incredible amount of energy to do actually. I do, I I, I have a, there's quite a bit of doing in my day as a, you know, breadwinner and, and, and father and husband and, you know, the managing director at the center there.
My day is filled with doing, and I have so much energy for it. I'm so energized by [00:58:00] it all really. Um, of course I have moments of, you know, exhaustion and tiredness and all that, but I, you know, caliber have Uh, it's a physical level experience, not a deep mental,
emotional level experience. No, no, Because my sense of purpose is to be of service to life and so then, everything becomes an opportunity for that.
Yeah,
are life within life and life is within you. And it's just all one kind of dance and expression of life. And that's such
an extraordinary way to live, isn't it?
incredible.
Isn't it
just being of service to life, trusting in life, allowing the dance of your unique gifts, talent, abilities to just come forward without even giving it thought.
As you said, the oak tree doesn't think about producing acorns. It simply does.
So you simply do whatever you do with the gifts and talents that you've been given, and then you see what happens
Yeah,
and then act again. And just kind of repeating that
that way.
yeah.
And I [00:59:00] wanna speak to a little bit of the 'cause there, there, it feels like a bit of a professional hero's journey as well because right when I kind of finished, when I, when I got certified as a deep coach, I did some work with and for the center and, I was very green at the time and we were kind of doing, you know, I was doing backend work, I was doing email work and we recorded some videos, did different things back then, maybe 2016, around that time, and.
For whatever reason, life called me away from that. And I had to go off on this entrepreneurial journey. Now in the entrepreneurial journey, because these ventures didn't necessarily succeed in all the metrics that one would deem sort of successful. At times I doubted myself and, and, and what I was doing and if I was actually knew what I was doing, like, you know, and all of that, you know, like, what, what is this?
You know? And, and what's interesting is when I got into the role at the center, it was like a, a moment of oh, oh yeah. I, I I, [01:00:00] I, I have been readying myself for this moment through all of these different ventures unknowingly, and I have the understanding this, the, the tools, the experience. Um, it was, I had been acquiring that along the way, but I didn't know until I kind of stepped into a role where my strengths could be on display.
You can say where I could really leverage my strengths. Where, um, I can see that fully. So there's, there's moments in the journey where you kind of like, or like, what was that for? Why, why, why did that? I experienced that. Why did I have to go through that? But then, you know, at least for me, I realized like, oh, okay, I see where this is all heading.
At least for this next sort of step and stage.
Right. That this is what life is calling you towards in this moment.
But I love it as you see it again, the breadcrumbs in hindsight.
yeah. But that's the gift isn't it? Is is the gift, is to see the life that took shape.
But the, it sounds like there's also a real profound message in this for all those on this path, and what I'm hearing [01:01:00] is don't necessarily need to wait to the future and look back. At the breadcrumbs to see the perfection of your life lining up in ways that makes sense now, but didn't then. What if today you just sat in the mystery, sat in the uncertainty, accepted unwaveringly that whatever this is right now, no matter what shape it's taking, this is a massive breadcrumb in your life and one day maybe you'll look back and get it, but if you can just trust that now and take that breath now, this moment can be everything for now,
yes, yes,
No matter what it seems.
Leon: yes. And this moment
Jonathan: or collapsing,
it's so true. And, and, and as a result, this moment is absolutely perfect
In that way,
yeah. Because those who are on this path of transformation, this deep inner journey, are on a path to live, as you've described. So life is trying to get our attention. Life is trying to [01:02:00] teach us constantly what we need to know. us experiences that are absolutely vital for our ongoing progress and development and evolution as,
as human beings. It's just, we're so often resistance around it, you know? But here, you know, you can look back and say, look it, it's all led. And it's like, I can say the same in my life. And so the big message I always say, people
Leon: like, look,
Jonathan: lean in now. Like, trust it now. This is it. This is the journey you're on. You've given your life over to this. Let it take you.
Leon: Yeah,
Jonathan: Yeah.
I have, I have so many coaches and, and folks that come to me and asking for advice and what do I do? What should I do? And, you know, it, it, it's so, 'cause there's a tactical aspect to business building and, and building one's thing. Sure. But, but the real journey, 'cause I, I can speak for myself only, I can't say, you know, to anybody else, you know, kind of burn the bridges.
Trust life, life will kind of, I don't know, you gotta, you gotta kind of sense and you gotta see where you are on your path. I do believe ultimately though, that everybody has that journey [01:03:00] within them and that life is providing those breadcrumbs. I really, truly believe that. But, but I, it, it does take.
Courage. Courage. And it does take walking into the abyss, you know, over and over again in order to really, truly walk the path with, um, in the right way, in the way life, in the way life is presenting. So life is not always gonna be showing up the way we want it to. Can you still trust that that is the, that is the deepest journey that we can be on?
And all of it seems to point whenever we feel a contraction of that inner being around something to those areas in need of healing in ourselves,
Yes.
right? There's something there that needs our attention because life doesn't need to be an ongoing series of feeling contracted. There will come a point in your experiencing I'm experience in our life
where there's just this sense of unbridled expansion,
Yes, all of that healing work. I'm saying it's all behind us again, but there is a major. [01:04:00] Kind of landing that happens where it just is like, yes, this is it, and there's gonna be a subtlety, a refinement of subtle edges, but this is it. Right?
This is where it can all lead to, and it is extraordinary to live this way.
Leon: Yeah. Yeah.
Jonathan: And I, especially for me, thinking in contrast to how I was living, and there's young people that speak to me of their journey and, and they're in it, they are fully in it, and it feels, it feels so disruptive and, and, and painful at times. And like, it will never end. And, and, and what I always share is, Hey, I've, I've been, trust me, I've been there.
Like I thought that there was no end in sight to this.
Leon: Yeah.
Jonathan: keep doing the work, keep leaning in, keep trusting because eventually things do stabilize and you come into a new sense of self and sense of being, that is a beautiful thing to experience.
That might be the perfect [01:05:00] note to end our conversation on, that you will come into a sense of self and being that is truly beautiful to experience. So thank you, Jonathan, for joining me, us today on this journey into the life that you are truly truly grateful for you
and your presence in my life today. Thank you.
Leon: Thank you so much. It was a pleasure.
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