Lorenz Sell shares his transformative journey from living in his car after a devastating financial loss to experiencing a profound spiritual awakening that redefined his understanding of integrity and human connection. The episode explores how hitting rock bottom allowed him to shed his past ego and build a life dedicated to spiritual wholeness and the creation of the Sutra platform.
What happens when you lose everything and move into your car just to keep your dream alive? Lorenz Sell, founder of Sutra, shares his extraordinary journey from living in his car and declaring bankruptcy to building a platform designed to cultivate collective intelligence at scale.
What we explore in this episode...
🔗 Learn more about Lorenz and Sutra:
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jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: you mentioned to me that you had a life-changing mystical experience, which sounds very juicy. but before we get into all that, and we will get into that, who would you say Loren sell was prior to that Experie?
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: Hmm. Well thanks for having me. And, um, thanks for the, the question. It honestly is not something I've had a lot of time to reflect on, and it's an interesting reflection because I would say the person before that experience, [00:01:00] um, a good person maybe wasn't, uh, as aware of. His wholeness wasn't as connected to it and, and also wasn't as connected to, um, um, meaningfully connected to a higher spiritual understanding or, or calling. Um, 'cause when I, when I look back on myself as, um, like that experience happened when I was 30, um, I mean, for sure there were all sorts of maybe I superficially visible things like you could say that I spent most of my late teens and twenties like, chasing women and, and kind of being very sexually driven. [00:02:00] but what's present for me in looking back at that, um. Is, is that there was always, uh, like a good heartedness about me. Like there was never a cruelty or like an abusiveness or like, um, kind of a, a quality about me that would like take advantage of people. Um, certainly I was like prone to getting in trouble and doing really stupid shit. Um, but I think one of the things that I really appreciate about, like, looking back at that side of me that I really recognize a certain wholeness there, even though, even though I wasn't aware of it, I wasn't really, um, in relationship to it the way I, I am now. And, and the un and understanding of of integrity, um, wasn't present for me. So, you know, I probably lied much more and certainly, you know, like, uh, and I'm happy to be very transparent about this. I, because I think one of the biggest areas where it showed up for me was in my relationship to women. And I, I was literally [00:03:00] unfaithful to, know, every, every woman that I dated, and I was very kind of promiscuous.
And that was a big part of what drove me and got me in trouble, as, as a, as a like, as a, priority. And so, um, the concept of, of integrity in, in say, in every relationship that I have wasn't, wasn't present for me even though, you know, and, and, you know, you could have a, probably like a philosophical discussion about like, Hey, how can, how can I claim goodness and, and be cheating on women and things like that. Um. I think that there's, you can, you can, you can do questionable things, but while still, um, how do I put this? It's an interesting thing to, to talk about. Um, you can do stupid things without being [00:04:00] cruel and, and while still having like, you know, being, being kind of like connected to a certain base level of, of, of humanity. Um, and I think even in, in, in examining my past and seeing like all sorts of really stupid things that I was doing, uh, there was a certain humanity there and it was maybe that the seeds of that were what really became more available to sprout into something much deeper, um, after my spiritual experience.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Hmm. If anybody listened to the episode, my own episode where Leon interviewed me, it, it's almost a mirror to my own upbringing. And, and I, and I have the same sense. It's interesting because I put out a post years and years ago now, kind of being transparent about who I was as a teenager and, and kind of apologizing to anybody that I, uh, treated poorly.
And one young woman came to me and she's like, you're even the. Yeah, I know you had this reputation and all these things, but honestly you always treated me with respect and you were always a good person. [00:05:00] And it was, it, it was, it was, um, good to hear because I think I was judging myself harshly for the way I was as a teenager, you know?
And, and I think young men make dumb mistakes and we don't have a developed prefrontal cortex. And so I do fully understand where you're coming from when you say you're a good person and you did, you know, knuckleheaded things along the way.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: Mm mm Yeah. And, and, and you know, to that point, you know, a big part of some of the work I've done since then has actually been, um, having conversations with all those people, certainly everyone that I could actually reach, uh, to, to really take responsibility to, to apologize, to clean up, um, those, those relationships, which, um, yeah. Has also been a big part of the kind of like transformation and healing.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Yeah, what a beautiful journey. You know, you're, you're one of the rare people that I've come across that can claim Earth as your home. And what I, what I mean by that is you literally have not lived in any one particular place your entire life. [00:06:00] Can you share a little bit about that here?
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: Yeah. And, and kind of, it's an interesting confluence in, into maybe the, the, the spiritual experience, the mystical experience that I had. But um, yeah, I grew up all over the place. Um, my, my. Hmm. Biological father was a German diplomat, and he died when I was five. And so I was born in Germany. Uh, we moved to Australia when I was three, and then my stepfather was a Swiss diplomat.
And, um, and then we moved around. So I ended up living in Germany, Australia, Morocco, South Korea, Canada, Switzerland, and then college in the US in Boston. And then I moved from Boston to Hawaii to San Francisco to New York, and now in Berlin. And, and I haven't lived anywhere much more than four, you know, basically everywhere, three to five years. Um, and, and to put a, you know, people always ask you where you're from and, uh. My, my mother's Russian, so I speak Russian and I never lived in [00:07:00] Russia. Um, my father's German and I don't speak German. I have a German passport. Um, and, and you know, now I live in Germany since I moved here a few years ago. But, um, so this question of identity has always been a big thing, right?
Because, um, I'm, I'm kind of Russian, but. Not, I speak Russian, but you know, I don't really know that much about the culture and, and I'm, I don't feel German at all. And I've spent most of my life in American schools. Um, certainly when I was traveling, I went to American schools in, in all those countries, and then I spent 20 years living in the us. Um, and I'm not American. So, so somewhere, uh, in my early thirties, I kind of figured out that, like when people ask you where you're from, um, that to me that that question points that, where do you feel some kind of deeper affinity or affiliation with, uh, and I, and I realized that, um, that was earth. That if I, you know, if I had some sense of patriotism, it would be about, you know, being from, from [00:08:00] Earth.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Yeah. And yet there is one place on Earth that feels more like home than others.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: Uh, there's two. Uh, and and it's funny, uh, you did great research, so I'm not sure what you're pointing at there, but there's two places. The one is certainly Burning Man, and one of the, one of the things I really got this last burn, uh, so in, in 2025, Natasha and I went a few months ago. Uh, and I really got that, one of the reasons why it's, it has such a big place in my heart, this was my 14th burn, um, was because it's one of the few places where I just feel a sense of belonging. and that, and really that question of like, where do you call home? Um, it, it does land in, in for me very much at Burning Man. I can understand people who feel a sense of home through that experience for me. You know, when someone's like, oh, you know, like when I go home to Oklahoma, I like, that's home. Um, you know, or whatever. Um, that, that [00:09:00] like, the sense of, of, I can't explain it, but just like, ah, I feel at home, I feel at peace. Like, I feel like deep, deep belonging to this land, um, is present for me at Burning Man. And, and then maybe the counterpoint to that is a, is, um, a little place on the south shore of Kauai in, on the Hawaiian islands called, uh, Klau. Um, which is just like a really massive, magical kind of, uh, very different energy place.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: What do you think it is about Burning Man? Because you're not alone in that feeling of this is home, this is where I belong, this is where I feel most myself. What do you think are the elements that have created that experience for so many?
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: Yeah, I mean, I've definitely spent 14 years thinking about this.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Sure. I.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: I think Burning Man offers a near religious experience in a way because of, [00:10:00] what people discover them about themselves and, and what people discover about what's possible in, in the domain of being human in, in the way that, um, it's a space of radical self-expression. Uh, it's a space of non-judgment and, and maybe most significantly it's a space of, um, generosity.
Like, like, like giving and, and gifting. I, I, I like, I feel like the word gifting. Mm. In, in some ways it's perfect and in some ways it's, it's, it has certain associations with it that, um, that almost, uh, don't convey how profound it is, you know, to, to be in a, the sheer scale of it, right? To be in a space of 70,000 people where, um, people are looking to contribute to your experience.
And, and there is zero [00:11:00] question of transactionality. You know, if I'm walking down the street in Berlin or in New York City and someone is giving out grilled cheese sandwiches, there's like, there's always some question, right? Like, is this like, is this part of a promotional campaign? Are they promoting some sort of like, new vegan cheese or are they trying to sell me something if they're trying to like enroll me into their cult, uh, you know, whatever it is.
And, and, and so we, I, I think in the default world, like we have our guard up against people's generosity. when someone is like unusually generous, there's a little bit of like a signal in the back of your head being like, what's up? Can I trust this? You know, which is so fucking weird,
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Yeah.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: It is just so weird. Um, and, and so when you're in a space where you can experience generosity without, uh, question, without confusion, and you can be generous in, in that same way and, and be fully received without any judgment, and you can, you can [00:12:00] allow of yourself to show up, you know, like your weird, freaky shadow sides that you know, just, you might not. Wanna acknowledge, and you can, and you can just allow that to be, you know, in a space because it's, it's such a freak show in some ways. It's such a freak show. You have like everything happening that you're like, well, whatever my freakiness is can, can be okay here, because there's just so much freakier around me. But there's something really interesting about, like, it's easy to dismiss that or from a distance being like, oh, it's a bunch of people doing drugs in the desert. Um, but I think there's something there on a much deeper level. Even, even the, the, you know, the substances in some ways help people, um, get like things out of the way that allow you to really connect with like a deeper quality of humanity to really be with people without judgment, without fear, without reservation.
To be with [00:13:00] yourself, to recognize your deepest, um, like of quirks or whatever, and, and embrace them. Um. And in, in the spirit of like, gift of gifting presence and receiving that gift and, and, and, and being in an environment where is, is just creating magic, right? It's just like you're walking in, you're freezing your ass off in the middle of the night.
It's a windy dust storm, and there in the middle of nowhere there's like a guy on a grill making grilled cheese sandwiches and, and just handing them out. And you're like, what the fuck? You know? And it's like the best grilled cheese sandwich I've ever had. And it's, it's so, it's made with so much care and attention, right?
He's got like the, the best high-end mayo and mustard and the fanciest cheese on the best bread, and he's taking five minutes for each one, and you're there waiting for 25 minutes just to get it. And you get it and you're like, wow.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Yeah.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: something about that that is, is so deeply restorative
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Hmm.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: [00:14:00] in, in the sense of like, you, at least for me, right?
It, it, it just gave me this. Deep recognition about who I am, who I want to be, what's possible with other people, and how the kind of world that I wanna live in. Right? Not in the kind of world where we all get high and party all the time, but in the kind of world where, um, we're, we're able to be with that level of like wholeness and, and, um, gifting and, and kind of, uh, just general reciprocity.
It's not like, I'll do this for you if you did this for me. It's just more that there's a whole ecosystem where we're all contributing to the magic of it, and, and somehow it works and, and it's so hard to convey. Like I, I think on a, like you can describe this, but on an energetic level to, to be in that space of, of, of just also, you know, the kind of, the journey of the seven days in, in the way that, um, you can literally feel the, [00:15:00] the relational coherence of the space. Transforming as, as, you know, as you approach the, the second half of the, of the event. And so to experience that, that relational field, um, think there's something there. That's what I meant by a religious experience. There's something there that you discover about, um, like, um, I guess di the direct experience of human spirituality, kind of like what its expression looks like that um, is, is just deeply, deeply humbling and uplifting.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Yeah. Yeah. The one element that stands out to me in Burning Man is that there is absolute safety and security psychologically, physically, emotionally, uh, financially. So people aren't coming from this place of lack. Of insecurity. Of course that's gonna arise when people have their own experiences and depending on where they're at.
But there is the freedom to just be, [00:16:00] and not I, I haven't, but that's one place,
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: that the people closest to me have. And it, it, it, it always stands out to me that that is what, that, that part of the ingredient that makes it, um, makes the freedom of it accessible because you don't have to think, where's my food gonna come from necessarily.
You don't have to think about how do I look? You know, how do I sound like, can I connect? It's all baked into, into there. And so then you're just free to experience and to drop your guard and, and see what happens.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: Yeah, I mean, it's, and it's also just when you said physical safety, it made me kinda laugh a little bit. 'cause you know, there's like, you could get hurt for sure. And that's part of the, the
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: true,
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: of it in, in that.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: true.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: and it's an interesting thing to explore. You know, something, one of the things that, um, present for me this year. And I think it's so important to be connected to the shadow of a situation is, is that there's, there's always, there's always a [00:17:00] shadow. And, and for sure, I, you know, one of the things about Burning Man is that like every, I think like life in general, um, you, you attract particular kinds of experiences. And so I'll encounter people that have a very different experience of Burning Man than I do. Um, and, and so for sure there, there's, there's challenging things that happen there. You know, there's, there's kind of like, like darker sides of maybe drug use or, or people getting hurt in different ways or, you know, certainly like you can climb, climb things and fall off them and stuff like that. So part, part of the environment also, one of the principles is radical self-reliance.
And, and I think that invites a certain quality of presence. Um, awareness and, uh, responsibility. That that is also like, this is, this is what's nice about what I find is really well balanced in Burning Man, and, and maybe different from other events that, 'cause sometimes I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, like, I'm so gung ho about Burning Man, and people [00:18:00] are like, oh, I already go to this festival.
I already go to this retreat. I already do this. I already get that. And, and for like, I'm, I, I think every, anytime you go anywhere and you have a great experience, it's absolutely fantastic. But there is something really powerful about Burning Man in, in kind of like the way it balances polarities in, in the way that, um, you know, there's also a roughness to it.
There's a wildness to it, there's a wildness to it, there's a, there's a, uh, an indefinability about it that kind of brings all these things in. Um, and it can beat you up, know, so like, there's no, certainly by the time I leave Burning Man, I'm, I am physically, you know, a little beat up about, about the experience, but there's something really deep about that, about, about how it really invites you to take full responsibility for, for everything.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Yeah. Yeah. So take us to 2011 and that mystical experience you had at Burning Man.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: Hmm. Um. I think like, like any kind of mystical [00:19:00] experience, it can be difficult to, to convey. Um, but I had just had, um, like a, an argument with, uh, with, with a friend and I was by myself and, you know, a stranger came up to me and, and said some things to me. Um, I, you know, like what, what, what she said maybe was less, less significant than, than somehow maybe the reflection that, that it, it, it triggered inside me. And it's, it's hard to explain the, the confluence of things that happened, but I had a, a, a visceral experience of peace and, um, I felt a, like a, a profound sense of awakening to. To my purpose in that, it just, it just felt like all of a sudden I just discovered that my purpose was to be, um, in service of world peace.
I'd never thought about peace before. It wasn't something that was like on my mind. Um, [00:20:00] you know, I'd never thought about having a particular purpose or, or, or calling, like at the time I was, I was really into, I still am really into, into fitness in one way or another, but at that time, in a different way, I was like a hardcore gym rat for 10 years.
And I was working on a, um, on, um, kind of a, a, a fitness platform. And I, you know, wanted to make the world a, like a healthier, fitter place. Uh, there's actually a hilarious video that I recorded. I was, so that year, it was like the year of transformation. I spent 2011 living in my car. Um, in, in San Francisco to keep my startup working.
So I, I'd had this kind of like financial situation where I'd lent someone money and that I'd lent them $40,000 and it kind of, that money never came back to me. And, and so I was faced with either I getting a job or figuring out how to continue working on my startup, this, this fitness startup heartbeat. Uh, and so I, I, I moved into my car on, in January of 2011, and then Burning Man happened in [00:21:00] August. So there was kinda like a whole process leading up to that. Um, and I'll, I'll take a brief detour here as well because it's also related to the, the kind of the sexual transformation that I had. Because as, as I mentioned, I'd had this relationship with women before that, and part of what helped me that was living in my car. It was actually the person I lent that money to was, was, was an ex-girlfriend that had a very destructive relationship with, and so there was a certain confluence of things that were exploding in my life that that kinda landed me in my car, which in some ways, if you think about it, is like the worst thing that can happen to you.
You know? Obviously my mom was like, where are you living now? it's okay, mom. I'm living in my car.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: I, I normally don't jump in in these things, but I'm curious, what, what was your experience of it? Were you just like, my life is falling apart in that moment? What, what were you actually like, you know, speaking, what was the inner dialogue?
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: Uh, it wasn't that my life was falling apart. I felt, I felt okay about it. [00:22:00] It somehow it felt, it felt okay. Like there's something about it that like in some ways I was like, oh, this will make for a good story one day. But, but it, it, it didn't feel, um, it didn't feel like this end of the world event. Um, I, I, I think, um. And in some ways it was kind of in, in, in, in some ways it was kind of liberating, you know, to not have to like pay rent and, and, and to deal with, with these things. Um, but it was also very difficult. Like, I, I, I, I think it was, um, there were just a lot of adjustments I had to make that there, there was, I wasn't comfortable sharing it with a lot of people, so I was kind of hiding, hiding that I was, you know, I, I was part of the San Francisco startup scene, so I was going a lot of events where there was a lot of startup people and, you know, I, I in general, very few people knew that I was living in my car. [00:23:00] Um, and then, and then of course my, my dating life was, was non-existent. Uh, so that was a major transformation for me in that I was no, like, I wasn't like, Hey, do you wanna come back to my car? You know, but that, that, that was, that was the, Yeah, that was the blessing, right? That was the blessing because, because, uh, it, it really confronted me with, with my sexual energy in a way that if I had not in my car for those 11 months, I'm, I'm not sure that that would've transformed.
Certainly in, you know, and, and like, like one, one thing that that changed was my relationship to like, masturbation and like, I, in my car, I stopped masturbating and that somehow, like, it, it, it all came together to, to shift, um, my relationship with my sexuality. So I was celibate for 18 months, and which was at that time, a really long time for me. Uh, and then, and then after that is when I met my wife and, you know, now we've been together. Um, she's my business [00:24:00] partner. I mean, we've been together now for, um, well I guess that was 2012 to now, so that's what, 14 years? Um, so, so. Yeah. So that, that was the background context of this experience that, that I had at Burning Man, where I was, I was working on a startup living, you know, eight months into living in my car. Very, very challenged, um, kind of, uh, like $60,000 in credit card debt. So kind of figuring out like, where, where am I going? Where am I going with this? Like, where am I going with life? Um, in, in this kind of major social sexual transformation, you know, social in terms of just like my relationship to, to people while living in my car, sexual and my relationship to women while living in my car.
So there was a lot of things that were kind of, maybe shifting in, in, in who I was and, and, uh, coming up for like, I [00:25:00] don't know, dissolution or, or, or transformation in some way. Um, and so I had this experience about. A visceral experience of, of, of world peace, what, whatever that means. Like, I can't quite explain it.
I just, I just felt like this planet, like it wasn't, it's not about nuclear disarmament, it's not about like non-violence. It, it, it just, it was just peace. It was like a, a population of this planet at, at peace. And I can't define it more than that, but I, I, I felt it at an energetic level and, and I felt that somehow it was my purpose to, to, to contribute to that. Um, and so I came out of that experience. It was so funny. This was, um, the following morning. So I, I kind of had this like all night long experience of just like reflecting on this. And then that morning as the sun was rising, I walked up to this guy I didn't really know too well, and he looks at me and outta nowhere.
He's like, and. If you [00:26:00] want to change the world, you need to move to New York City. So I'm like, okay. I was, I was living in my car and, and I literally, so I, I came outta that experience and I, I went to my friends and I was like, I'm moving to New York City to work on world peace. And I, know, and so everyone thought that I, like, you know, I, I went off the deep end on some like, crazy mushroom journey or something. Um, and, and so I, I, I was definitely a little bit ungrounded, but I think, I think that was okay because, um, because ultimately, like whenever I talk to people who have some sort of profound mystical experience or spiritual thing, or some sort of like, you know, thing, and sometimes they get caught up in, in kind of like, what does it mean?
And, you know, I, I, I experience myself as like Jesus Christ or something. Does that mean I'm Jesus or whatever? and to me. All, all of that is, is, is element. It doesn't mean [00:27:00] anything. It what means something is what you do with it. Right? What does it become the seed or the catalyst for, for you in your life?
How do you, how do you take whatever that experience was without like overinterpreting it about what it means as far as your identity or who you are or is this okay or not? Okay? And how do you channel it, you know, if, if that's constructive for you, valuable for you into something like and valuable in your life.
And, and ultimately that's like, how, that's how I digested that experience. Like, that's how I've continued to digest that experience in, in terms of just giving, giving me, um, a catalyst for who I want to become in, in, in my life and the work that I do.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Incredible. And what was then, did you take the car and you went out to New York shortly after?
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: Yeah. Shortly after, so this was, this was, uh, beginning of September was, you know, the end of Burning Man. Um, I came outta that and I was literally, like, my credit cards were my, I was getting to a point with my car that if I didn't [00:28:00] like drive to New York soon, I would, um, I wouldn't have money for gas to get there.
Right. So, um, I had this whole experience. I had just had a major, um, oh, I didn't mention, the other thing that happened just before Burning Man is that I had a, a co-founder situation that totally blew up
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Hmm.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: like in a, in the messiest way possible, we had been part of a, um, accelerator, a really awesome accelerator in San Francisco called Rock Health. And it that this really, one of the things that was up for contention was that he didn't like that I was living in my car and that I like, and that I wanted to go to Burning Man. It was a lot of other stuff there as well that was just like, but it basically, that whole thing blew up. So everything was kind of blowing up and I was being confronted by my financial situation. And then I felt, um, I just felt this deep calling that, that I had to go to New York City. Um, and so, so this is a great, this is, this is, I love sharing this story just because sometimes the [00:29:00] universe works in mysterious ways. Um, so I decide I'm going to New York, and this happens in kind of the second half of November, and I leave New York on, I think it was November 20 20th or something, 2011.
And on the way to New York, I called two people. Um, one is, uh, a friend that I kind of knew through Burning Man, and I was like, Hey, I'm moving to New York. I'm kind of trying to raise money for, for, for this project I'm working on. And do you know anyone? She's like, well, come over to a Thanksgiving dinner I'm hosting. Um, and, and so she invites me to her Thanksgiving dinner. And then the other person I call is my future wife Natasha, who at that time was just like a good friend of mine, and I'm like, Hey, can I come and crash on your couch for a few weeks? So, and she had, she had a different, she had a boyfriend at the time, and they had a really rocky relationship.
Like, they, they were all, they were kinda on the verge of breakup. So, um, so two things. I, I get to New York the day before Thanksgiving and, [00:30:00] um, Natasha's outta town. So I sleep in my car one last night, and I wake up on Thanksgiving Day. on Thanksgiving day two things happen. So this is th I think it was November 24th, 2011. I go to this party where I meet this lady's wife, uh, this lady's wife, this lady's husband who invests $600,000 in my company at the time.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: How, how, how soon after? How soon after? Write the check.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: I, I had the money like, like within six months.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Incredible. Incredible. Yeah.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: and I move into future wife and business partner's house.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Incredible.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: that all happened on Thanksgiving.
So Thanksgiving day is like a really special day for me. 'cause that was a, you know, that was a serious kind of like,
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Oh yeah.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: living in my car was a, was a kind of serious, I hesitate to call it a dark night of the soul, but it was, it was a, it was a major, major turning point in my life. A major event that, that kind of like [00:31:00] changed the direction of my life.
And that, and that mystical experience was, was kind of like the, like the, the, the, the pinpoint of that.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: It's interesting that you identify Burning Man as a mystic mystical experience because Thanksgiving, New York is just as much the mystical experience in the story as Burning Man was in so many ways. So it's part of the same, and it's incredible how that
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: it was, it was kinda like an, it was a different kind of mystical experience, not, not quite internal in the
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Sure,
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: but,
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: sure. Sure.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: took longer to recognize for what it was as well.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Yeah. Yeah. Unbelievable. This is, this is such an important point because this is the, the, the transformational journey that we talk about here and that folks that go through our programs experience is quite destructive in nature. Can be usually is, I know it was for me, I mean, destructive, it could be on the external, but certainly on the internal right.
Identities that we've held onto, relationships that we've had. Um, all these things, they start crumbling in some regard to make way for the new, but as [00:32:00] the crumbling is happening, it's, it's never clear what, where it's all leading and where it's all going. So it require, I mean, it doesn't even require trust because whether you trust or not, it's all happening.
So it's, what's interesting about these transformational journeys is that when they hit, you're just on the ride, you know? And, and it could be bumpy, rocky ride for certain. And so then there was some validation there on Thanksgiving it sounds like. Okay, I see why New York incredible. And was this
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: it, it wasn't like instant 'cause the, the, the, like, it wasn't like that. Like I,
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: and
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: know, then I had the pitch meeting and then dah, dah, dah, you
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Right.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: but it, the, the, in retrospect, like Thanksgiving Day, that's when both points of contact happened.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Yeah. The catalyst. Yeah. And so was this for Sutra? Was Sutra what He, with this gentleman. Okay. Okay.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: was, that was, that was for, so at that time I was, I was working on, uh, a platform called Heartbeat, which is like pre spiritual experience, [00:33:00] mystical experience. It was like a platform for fitness professionals. And Post was, I was really, you know, again, I think one of the questions you, uh, maybe suggested or territories you suggested we might explore is, um, like converting.
How do you convert that into. the work that you do. And w when I came out of that mystical experience, I, I knew that I wanted to bring more love into the world. I didn't really know what that meant. And one of the w territories I was really interested in was around work and, and coming outta Burning Man, I was really interested in kind of like reciprocity and, and so we kind of pivoted heartbeat to be, um, uh, uh, an e-commerce platform where people, where independent creators could post their products and then could cross promote each other's products.
And so we're trying to build networks of, of mutual support where we would track, um, like traffic that they would send to each other and, and somehow like try to, you know, help them support each other in meaningful ways. It, it didn't end up working out, but, [00:34:00] but that was the, that was the kind of like the shift from inspired by that mystical experience.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Yeah. What was the assumption that you had that didn't quite pan out in the market?
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: Um, oh boy, that's a great question. Uh, I think in some ways I feel like I've been circling around that, that that territory, um, since then, really looking at, yeah, I'm really
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: I.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: in the embodied expression of, of love and care. Like what does that look like, particularly in the context of our, of, of our economy, of, of how we do work. Um, and, and so it, it's one of those things that sounds really cool in theory, like, Hey, let's build a social network where people like, you know, uh, gift work to each other or support each other. But in practice it's, it's, there's just, there's so much complexity, at least in, in, in my experience, and I haven't seen any successful implementation of it. So, um, I'm not sure what the assumption was as much as just our execution was not, um, [00:35:00] was not, um, like. Right in that sense. And, and, and, you know, I mean, I could get more technical. We, we were ultimately competing with a platform like, like Shopify, uh, in, in creating really easy storefronts. And what we found was that most of our creators wanted more sophisticated features, and we weren't as interested in building any e-commerce tool as we were in, in these kind of more relational things.
And the relational things were not translating to meaningful traffic, to, uh, to the people's storefronts. And, and so in that sense, we were kind of like offering a lesser equipped online storefront that wasn't really delivering on the promise of, um, of, of, of traffic and, um, more customers.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Yeah. Yeah. I'm interested. So you broke up, so to speak, with the original co-founder who, who then you, you started saying we, who, who was the we that you eventually, who did you bring on board?
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: Yeah,
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: It was
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: [00:36:00] so I,
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: great.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: So I, I had, I had, I, I moved in with her and, you know, it's such a, like, funny story. Like literally we were, we were a hundred percent platonic. We were living, like, I was sleeping on her floor, um, for like six months. I had, um, yeah, I mean, I wanna just share some nuances here because I, I think they're so interesting about. what it takes to get out of a situation like I was in, right? Like living in my car and in, in that moment it wasn't so scary. But I think if I didn't have the support systems and access to, like, I've always had access to, um, like obviously like I'm, I'm, I'm a white guy that is like, you know, reasonably good looking.
I present well. I'm articulate, I'm intelligent, I'm college educated. So I have a lot going for me in, in just a world of like kind of default privilege, right? And so I think like something I've really reflected on through that whole experience was. [00:37:00] everything that I had, um, like I'm really present to what it took to get me out of that, you know, because when you're, when you're going through, uh, bankruptcy or living in your car and all these things, like, there's a whole bunch of social structures that just kind of like collapse around you, that if you're trying to rent a place, you know, you need to have. Uh, I think when, when I ended up renting an apartment in New York City, I needed to have like 14 or $20,000 cash upfront, right? My investor was, was nice enough to gimme the reference, to give me the money upfront, all of that stuff, right? So there was a lot, like, for a while I had to get my phone through, through Natasha.
So there was a confluence of things. That made it possible for me to, to reenter society and, uh, as, as kinda like a, a functional citizen. Um, and so I, I, I really reflect on that as far as just how, how difficult it can be to, to, um, to reenter, you know, to reenter the world once you've had [00:38:00] one of these like destructive, transformational, or, you know, or, or just the, you know, like kind of a challenging experience
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Yeah.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: Um, so anyway, so going back to kind of, uh, how we started working together. I had been living with Natasha. I was able to raise this money, so the, for the, I, I had literally like. I even ended up, I was so low on cash, I sold my car. I, so I literally sold everything. Just the, I sold everything that I had of, of value in moving to, to New York.
And when I got to New York, I sold my car. 'cause I was that, like, that strung out and like, no money. And then the investor money came in like at the last moment. and, and that's when I was able to get an apartment and kind of like situate myself. And Natasha was transitioning out of another job and I was like, Hey, I'm gonna run this awesome startup.
It's gonna be super successful. Why don't you come and work with me for a bit? And that's when we actually, like when I was living with her, we were both so busy. We barely spent time together. When we started working together is when we fall in, fell in love with each other.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Oh, [00:39:00] incredible, incredible.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: we weren't dating when we actually started working together.
We were, we were just like, we were just good friends.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Yeah. As somebody who's started three different companies, I now am, I'm running the center it, the partnership part and, and finding the right partner in terms of business partner, I, I know to be very vital to the success of business almost as much as a product market fit. And so what was it about Natasha that outside of the falling in love that makes her such a good partner for you to build something with?
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: I, I think this is, this is a really deep question that, um, intersects with many developmental layers for me personally. And, and it kind of also blurs the boundaries of, of business and intimate partner. Uh, I, I, you know, I feel like I'm, I'm one of those entrepreneurs who's, who's fundamentally probably less so today, but fundamentally unemployable and, and, and I've been literally fired from every job I've had. Um, so even [00:40:00] like, like, like I raised $5 million for a company shortly after college, got fired by the board, you know, three, four years after that. So, or I had co-founder blowouts, so there were, there were kind of certain relational patterns that, that, that followed. Me around. So first and foremost, like one of the things that, um, one of the biggest parts of my transformation, which, which was very much supported by my relationship with Natasha, is, is the way that she offered me, um, a space of unconditional love and, and really allowed me to, to explore, um, deep insecurities within myself in, in, in a way that I'd never been able to do.
Right? So it's not that she was like the source of my transformation, but in, in the, in the way that she expressed and held her love for me. Um, and in the way that I was able to kind of mirror things and, and, and understand things about, um, [00:41:00] you know, I think one of the, maybe the, one of the first stepping stones in a transformation for a person can be. Recognizing that all those things about yourself that you think are horrible or that are wrong with you, um, that they're, they're just, they are what they are, but they're not who you are. You know? And, and really like discovering that and discovering how they're just different ways of being that, that, that you can work with and transform or somehow channel or integrate, um, is a major, major shift, right?
Is, is from being that thing to being in relationship to that thing. Like that's the whole game of transformation, right? From being that thing to being in relationship to that thing, what, what, whatever it is. And, and so first and foremost, the thing that that Natasha offered me as far as partnership in the deepest sense of it was a space where I could begin that journey of kind of dealing with my deepest insecurities.
That, that had often [00:42:00] kind of. Um, translated to either very dysfunctional, destructive relationship with women or business partners, or just different people in my life. Um, and, and, and I think that that created the, the foundation for like everything else as far as like maybe the more practical dimension of what made us good business partners that, um, that we were, we were very different but complimentary.
Like first, you know, a lot of people ask me about what's it like working with your like relationship partner. Uh, and I'd say it's amazing, but it's not for everyone. We literally spent 24 hours a day together. But we love it and, and, and we, we continually learn and discover new things about each other. We never run out of things to talk about.
And we deal well with the pressure of like, you know, we're both, um, we both kind of came from like lesser means, and so we're, we're very comfortable dealing, not comfortable, but capable of dealing with, um, like financial [00:43:00] pressure, like roughing it out. Um, I think at that, at, at that level and, and we're both super, like, I like to think we're both super intelligent.
Like she went to Harvard. We're both kind of like, figure it out. Um, we're both good at, at, at the hustle side of things. Um, but in, in, in different ways. Like I'm, I'm kind of, um, and, and like I'm, I'm more technical kind of tools minded. She's more operational and, and kind of good at like, um, handling all sorts of details.
Um, and so we, we, we just, we balance each other out. Really, really well in terms of the things that, that we, um, that, that we both like doing or that we're both good at doing.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Hmm. Yeah, I, I believe that most of the significant traumas we experience in our life are relationship based. They happen in a relationship, and really the, the only way. Through them. C Oftentimes when people go on their transformational journey, it's an, they're in isolation, so they're off somewhere, they're meditating, they're, they're doing [00:44:00] that inner work, but eventually you have to go back into that, into a relationship
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: Mm-hmm.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: to truly heal those core wounds.
And it sounds like you had the opportunity to, to heal two types of, sort of traumas. The business trauma with partnership, but also love and intimacy and sexuality with the same person, which is quite unique and different and.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: and different. Yeah. And, and I think a big, like, for me at least, a big part of it was about, um, healing my relationship to my deepest insecurities, which were ultimately. Kind of part of the, the shadows that were expressing themselves in those, in, in, it was what I was compensating for. It was what I was not seeing about myself. Um, which the work of transforming that was far bigger and took much more than just the relational container with my wife. But, but there was something about the, the seed that, that the foundation that she provided for me [00:45:00] that really helped me, uh, turn a corner on that journey.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Yeah. Yeah. What was it like, the transition from the sort of, let's call it the death of heartbeat bef and prior to the birth of Sutra, so that, oh, this is not another thing that's not working great. How did you, how did you that? And it's brutal. It's brutal. It's, it's, it's a part of you dying, in essence. So how did you both process that?
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: It was brutal because, you know, like we talked about, there was this secondary mystical experience of, you know, this kinda like, oh, like I went through the, the valley of death and lived in my car and then raised money and it was supposed to be the rainbow journey. You know, everything is good now. I married to, I've met my soulmate and, and this business and um, and, and so that, um, that not working out.
And then, you know, we, we moved into, um, like Natasha's mother's house, um, again, kind of going through this like deep, deep financial, [00:46:00] uh, Um, and this is kind of what I meant is that I think what, what one of the incredible things about our partnership. Um, like, like Natasha joined the entrepreneurial journey because of me.
Like she's not, I'm, I'm, I'm like, let's go build it. She's like, she's, she, she, she, she, she's in into this because, you know, she really believes in what she's doing and, and because she loves me, um, she, she is not, because she like really wants to do the whole like, start your own business thing. That, that really comes for me.
And so to, to be with someone that is willing to kind of, um, stay, stay with it through, you know, through the darkes of times. And, and, and I think a lot of relationships are, um, or damaged by financial hardship. Um, and, and so to be able to, to go through like this really deep, deep, I mean. You know, we, we were at, at one [00:47:00] point in time to keep things going.
We were literally, like on food stamps. We were taking advantage of every government program we could come up with just to keep working on, um, on what is now Sutra. You know, this was, this is, so Heartbeat was kind of went, went downhill around 2000, um, or so. And again, I had another major, uh, the blowout with that investor. So this, you know, this is a pattern that kinda like followed me around. Um, and I was really attached to the name heartbeat.com. 'cause I, I'd gone through a lot of trouble to get it, and part of like, why I invested was he loved the domain name and he wanted to sell it. And so that was like a major, like a major point of contention for us.
Um, and so that, that relationship kind of like blew up. And so there was a real moment of just like questioning this whole world peace thing. Where are we going with this? What are we doing? and right around 2015. Someone had told me about the Ulab program from the Presencing Institute, and, and Natasha and I [00:48:00] both participated in that.
That was their first, their first iteration of the large scale version of that program. and, and so there was something about that, that, that just profoundly inspired both of us in, in the way that it was one of the, like, like coming outta my mystical experience, I was looking for how can I do something online that, that, that truly cultivates genuine human connection and care? the Ulab program was the first time where I experienced that. They, they, they had 30,000 people participating and they broke us up into small groups. I think it was a group of six or seven. And we met once a week and they gave us a particular structure for that conversation. And, and I experienced deep, meaningful connection and relationships with, with strangers that I met online. And so there's something there that was kind of like, aha. Like there's something here. The way that people feel connected is through small groups. Um, and at that time, like I. I studied computer engineering in college, and I graduated in 2003. Um, but I haven't, hadn't [00:49:00] coded since then. Literally, even though I, I raised money for different tech startups.
I, I wasn't involved in coding at all. So, um, you know, in 2015 we were just like so broke. Literally, I had, um, I had been carrying this massive debt, the $60,000 debt. Um, and um, so I declared bankruptcy. So I had like, I was like nothing living in my wife's mother's house. Like literally like. Fucking nothing. and, um, so I was again confronted with this moment of like, either let go get a job, uh, or figure it out. And so I taught myself how to code, uh, and um, so I coded the first version of what is now suture something radically like less than what it is today. Um, but really with this inspiration around being able to scale small group learning and, and, and also, um, like I share this, uh, story a lot because I think it's such a profoundly important insight into what it takes to transform a vision into reality, which is about like the single biggest thing I learned [00:50:00] from two big failures as in business, like the five, I raised $5 million and then $600,000, right? is is just the importance of. small scale iteration versus like investing years building something to put something out that then, you know, nobody wants and, or, or doesn't land the way that you, you, you hoped it would. So in, in the position that I was in, I had just, I had just read, um, lean Startup by Eric Reese, which is an incredible book for anyone who's thinking about launching a startup. And I'd encountered Theory U and, and together they really introduced me to this idea of prototyping. So, um, I, I wrote the first line of code in 2015. Three months later we, we deployed it in, in a coworking space that we were working out of in, in New York City. Um, and, and then we tried it with our Burning Man camp. Um, and then there'd been an, an organization that Natasha was involved with the Harvard program and Refugee Trauma. We started working with 'em. Um, they were looking at [00:51:00] shifting from an old, um, I think they were using Moodle from some old LMS they were using. Uh, and so we kind of updated what we were doing and we were, we, we were just. Iterating, prototyping and, and hustling. Like at, at one point, HPRT, the Harvard Program, refugee Trauma, they were paying us a thousand dollars a month, and that was our entire income for a year. So we were making $12,000 a year, just like, you know, food stamps, hustling, figuring it out, um, and, and iterating.
Iterating with, with nothing besides just, um, just, just like connection to, you know, talking to the people we were working with and, and, and building from there.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: What was driving you? I mean, this was you, you went. Through two, you went through two big failures and that same person would be like, okay, I, I'll go get a job. But as we know, with most successful entrepreneurs, whoever becomes eventually a successful entrepreneur, you have to have a, an unreasonableness to you in some regard.
And sort of, [00:52:00] um, yeah, a, a, a lack of a, a sort of stubbornness you can say.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: Hmm.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: There does seem to be a bit of stubbornness. So what, what, what do you think was driving you here to be like worth? Um, let's try another thing. Let's keep going.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: You know, it's, it's one of those things, I think it's a double-sided, double-sided answer. Um, and I'll frame this in the context of a, of like a, of a micro story. Uh, so in, in 2017, I was working on, um, uh, a Burning Man art project, uh, that was a little bit provocative and it was something that I had, um. That had kind of come to me like over the years, was basically at Burning Man, you have these giant sculptures that are a word, like love or believe or whatever.
And so I was like, there was one moment I was just like, oh, wouldn't it be funny if you had a word? And it was word. And, and then a, a a little later I was like, oh, yeah. And then what if it was like covered in pages of scripture from all the world's religions? Like, you know, in the beginning [00:53:00] was the word, and the word was of God, and the word was God. And then, and, and so, and for a long time I circled that. I was like, wow, that sounds really, really provocative. Um, and then I, I, I, I, I've just kind of, my, my relationship to the mystical as it expanded, I, I felt like I could, I could deliver that project with integrity. And there was a lot of, um, it was very provocative, like as I was raising money for it. Um, many people, particularly Jewish people were, were just telling me like, you can't, you can't burn the Torah. and it was like really, really, um, offensive. And so I, I went on this whole thing. I just talking from to people from different religions and, and I, there was this one conversation I had with somebody, a guy named Moses, he was like, Loren, much of this project is for you and how much of this project is for God? And I was like, it's a hundred percent for me and a hundred percent for God. Um, and, and so, and, and, and, but like it was so clear to me that that was the truth. Um, and, and so what, what I, I mean [00:54:00] to say is that in the question of like, what drives me, know, the a hundred percent for me is that like, I just don't wanna fucking fail.
You know? Like I, you know, to to, to kind of, especially as I get older now, like I'm in my mid forties at that time I was in my mid thirties. But, you know, it's one thing to be like a kid in your twenties and you have that, the, the startup and this, like, you're working on anything meaningful takes so much. And after a while when you just invested so much of yourself in something that you just believe in, like the prospect of like failing you know, for me is just like, I can't fail. Like this has to, this has to work. And, and then so that's the kind of like more selfish whatever, like that's the a hundred percent for me side of it. But then there is this other which is equally strong, right? I think that's the thing to understand. It's equally, it's not like, oh, you know, it's mostly this, mostly that it's, it's, it's equally just as much a part of it, which is just this, even like, you know, I have plenty of dark nights of the soul, like since then [00:55:00] when I look at the world today and I just see what's going on and I just see the, the extreme polarization and, and suffering. Um, and, and I, and I just ask myself like, what, what, like, what does the world need and what can I contribute? And, and I just land on like, you know what, what, like, what we're trying to do is, is, is, is cultivate relational capacities at scale. We're trying to create online spaces that in invite like meaningful connection and conversation and, and most importantly, invite like deeper levels of awareness, invite people's capacity to, to be with each other, to feel each other. And I don't know how to do that, right? Like I don't know how to do that at scale. But, but all of Sutra has been an inquiry into how to do that, right? It's not that like what we're doing right now as a, as a learning platform is, is, is, is delivers on that. Or even if you sign up for Sutra that you would recognize that.
But it's that in the background of everything that we're doing. That's the question that is always. Alive. That's the question is like, how, how can this genuinely help, [00:56:00] like, improve the quality of communication between people at, at the full spectrum of what it means to communicate, not just what people say, but you know, the mental, emotional, embodied and beyond capacity to really be with each other. and, and so when I, when I, when I look at the work that we're doing, answer for me is that this is so profoundly important. I don't know how to deliver on it. Um, but it is unquestionable for me that with everything we're facing today, like, it's like existentially important for us as a society to learn how to be with each other in, in, in this way. Um, and so I like, I don't know what else I would do, do with my life. I, I, I think to, to also just add a little bit of maybe to it. I, I all like. I often ask myself, is this the thing for me to be doing right now? Right. No matter how difficult it is, like, is this the right thing? It may be going [00:57:00] crazy, just, you know, I may have no idea where this is going, but I can still feel that somehow like, this is the right thing for me to be doing right now.
This is the right expression of my energy. And, uh, and in that sense, like I feel also as, as attached as I am. Like there's also, um, you know, maybe the one thing we haven't touched on so much here is just relationship to God and devotion, which I consider, um, which isn't part of everyone's transformational process, but, but for me has been an enormous part of my transformational process is just direct experience of God relationship to that like deep devotion, um, you know, kind of a deep aspiration around that.
And, and I always like that is the foundation of. Everything for me, like, like surrender and trust to that and, and you know, kind of like praying and being receptive to that signal, to whatever that signal might be. [00:58:00] Um, and, and so as, as, as, as like stubborn, as, as you know, kinda like determined as I am, I, I, I, I, I, I would evaporate all of that in, in the face of, um, kind of, uh, some sort of like divine intuition to the contrary,
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like you're in relationship with God and constantly checking in and is this what I need to be doing? Is this where I need to be? And it's fully resonant inside of you, right.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: exactly.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Pushing you forward. So that a hundred percent, God, a hundred percent me resonate. I love that. I love that because it's true.
It's, it's so true. For somebody who, who doesn't know what is Sutra
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: Sutra is a social learning platform designed around meaningful connection and conversation. Um, so that can mean a few things. If you're running, uh, cohort based learning experiences, Sutra basically takes care of everything [00:59:00] from, um, like the registration page, processing payments,
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: I.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: members to, um, setting up the online social spaces, organizing the content, stuff like that. I think some of the, the more interesting stuff that we've been getting into recently has involved, um, AI and running, um, uh, AI moderated learning experiences. So for example, um, in, in the context of say like a self-paced course, you have a self-paced course, people sign up, they go through it on their own pace.
It's kind of like a digital book. Um, like I think the statistics for that are that 97 people, 97% of people. Don't complete those. Uh, so the, the, the, the attrition rate is extremely high and, and there's no, um, there's no social dimension. There's no, like, you're just kind of on your own. Um, one of the things, I think one of the most unique and powerful things that we're doing, that we're really expanding on is how a self-paced learning experience, AI can function like, um, like an asynchronous facilitator.
So, um, everyone who's [01:00:00] participating in a self-based experience kind of has an opportunity to, to learn from each other, to, um, to see each other, to, uh, to connect. And then AI highlights the best contributions. It finds connections between what people share. It suggest connections between people. So it's an entirely self-paced experience that is also social.
At the same time, with ai, basically performing the function of, um, an intelligent facilitator. Like, you know, if you have a cohort based experience and you have an amazing facilitator, that's kind of like highlighting where people share and, and finding connections. Um, that delivered by ai. In a self-based experience is, is a big part of what we've been expanding on and, and something I'm really excited about.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Yeah. One of the features I like most is. Kinda how people know the pay, pay to play model. But here it's participate to play. So the idea of if you want the next module or you want the next video
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: Right,
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: comment right. To, to participate in the discussion in some sort of way. I thought. I think that's,
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: to [01:01:00] basically, um, if you, if you wanna move through the content you have to post, and then there's an AI engine that, that filters the best contributions. Um, so I, like, for me, this is, this all like, revolves around this territory of, um, like collective intelligence. How do you, how do you surface the insight and understanding of participants?
How do you, um, 'cause, ' cause in our relationship to content, to information, I, I, I feel like there's, there's the information itself and then there, there's our, there's the secondary dimension of our way of being, uh, in relationship to it. How we make meaning of it, how, how, how our relationship to, to the other people that are in relationship to that content. And in online learning, that secondary dimension is almost completely overlooked, right? It's just about the content. It's just about the information. Um, and, and that secondary dimension to me is, uh, is the most powerful in terms of the, the developmental value that, that it offers. And that's where I feel. AI has this really, um, unique and powerful [01:02:00] capability to, to offer, um, value around the, the sense making, the way that the intelligence of all the people in the system, in the group and the course can be surfaced. Um, and, and the way that that connections can be made between people and in, in a learning experience in a way that really adds value to everyone.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Yeah. Using technology to connect people rather than how it's used often to disconnect people in, in, in so many
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: mean our, like many of
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: platform.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: platforms are just, they're just, yeah. Very polarizing.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Very polarizing. What are some of the sort of surprising experiences that you've seen folks have within Sutra, that sort of unexpected experiences perhaps, that have pleasantly surprised you?
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: Um, certainly some of the most meaningful conversations I've been part of in terms of people really being vulnerable and opening up and sharing deeply about themselves have been, uh, in the [01:03:00] context of some of the programs that, that we're running on, on Sutra, which is something I'm, um, you know, we're very actively iterating on to understand how to, um, how to expand on that.
Like, one of the, one of the challenges I've experienced on, on other social platforms right now is that I'm just seeing there's so much AI generated content, which in some ways like is, is cool and all, but it also kind of, you can just feel it in the quality of the words. It, it's all kind of hook driven.
It's designed to get your attention in two sentences and, you know, there's a certain structure and a formula to it, I'm just like, Ugh, it's exhausting. You know, after a while it's, it sounds kind of intelligent, but after a while it's exhausting. And, and so, um, like creating a space for, for deeper, more authentic human sharing.
And I think, um, I guess I'm surprised to, to, to see how, uh, how that comes through in this particular format. [01:04:00] And also how, how hard it is to, to really expand on it. Like I'd say one of the biggest challenges that I'm, that we're dealing with right now is, like, you know, we ran a course with, um, with, with, with Leon the, I think it was called Anatomy of a Safe space. And, and so people, people contribute. Um, but then the question is really do you do with that? You know, even if you have a, a system of people where everyone's contributed something thoughtful, um, how can that kind of have a life beyond that experience as some sort of knowledge document or living library of understanding that that transcends that experience. And um, that's something we've been. Like, not theoretically, but very practically, like, like with many different experiences prototyping and experimenting with, um, yeah. And the answer has been a little bit elusive. Like even, even if people contribute super deep, thoughtful responses, what do you, what do you do with that?
And [01:05:00] that's something that we're, we're, we're, um, we're trying to expand on.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: I mean, it's no small challenge and this is the, the beauty, but the difficulty as well of, of this kind of enterprise of trying to innovate is that you, you don't really know where the end. Is you have to just kind of keep going and keep discovering, keep, you know, iterating and, and hope you find the answer as you go, but be, be driven by the question and constantly be searching for it.
But it's, it's hugely ambitious what you all are aiming for. And, and I think, like you said, it is as needed as ever in this world that we're in and that we're moving further into to, to, to have spaces. Because the thing is maybe we'll move to a world where people start moving to physical locations where their tribe is.
But we currently live in a world where folks are in a certain geographical location and their tribe are elsewhere. And that's also the beauty of, of technology is that we can do that. And so how do you connect with those that are in your quote [01:06:00] unquote tribe and live elsewhere, but in a really deep and meaningful way like you might around a dinner table, you know, and asynchronously.
Yeah, it's really fascinating and great work that you're doing, man.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: I was just in, in, in, uh, in LA and had my first experience of a self-driving car. Um, and, and I think that that, you know, self-driving cars for sure are gonna exacerbate that trend of, of people
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: yeah,
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: away of people. You know, there's something really nice to kind of like live where you want and not have to suffer an a two hour commute or whatever, but
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: yeah.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: a self-driving car.
So I think for sure, between Zoom and AI and, and self-driving cars, we're seeing a world of more and more geographic distribution.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Hmm. Yeah, totally, totally. What have you learned about human connection, uh, since you started?
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: Um, oh, that's a deep question. Um, I think the, the thing that comes to mind is, uh, revolves around [01:07:00] attunement and, and really recognizing the. The full spectrum of, of what communication means between, between two people. Um, in that, it's not just about what's, what's, what's spoken and that there's so much more that is unspoken but communicated anyway that, um, is, that can be received, um, with full awareness, but often, but often isn't. And, and the capacity to, to really feel another person, right. To, so that I feel you feeling me to really be with another person in that way. Um, I think that, you know, when, when I started, uh, on this journey in 2011, um, that understanding that vocabulary was, was not present for me. Right. I didn't really have a lot of the, the language for, um, for some of these things that I understand in a more, um, embodied and, and, and direct way.
And, and so when, when it comes to, to connection, [01:08:00] um. For me, the heart of that revolves around, um, safety or which, which means that I'm, I'm with a person that, um, I feel them feeling me. And, and that we're able to, um, communicate across, uh, a much broader spectrum than, than what it is just spoken. And, and I think this is very much like a developmental thing as well in the sense of, I'm really present to when I, when I meet someone, um, where they're at in, in, in that capacity, you know, that often I'll meet people and, and they're, you know, they're not tuned and kind of like attuned in, in that way, which is cool 'cause I can meet 'em where they're at. But, but there is something that, that, um, you know, that, that can open up as a, as a capacity to really be with another person, which also, um, is the foundation of the ability to be with disconnect, to be with, with, um, with Differe. Right is, is, is that you can, you can have a [01:09:00] point of view that is profoundly different from mine. Um, and if I can hold space for you and, and, and feel you and fully receive what you're sharing, um, that allows the, the energy of that communication to, to somehow move in in a more constructive way, which is, I think one of the things that is most missing in, in our world right now. We, we live in this extreme positionality, um, with, with zero, uh, or very little capacity to really receive the other in a way that the other feels like they've been received.
And that in, in any kind of positional situation like that, that that's, that's the only thing that will shift it. Well, maybe there are others, but, but that, you know, really feeling like, okay, you really have understood what I'm saying. Now we can, now we can explore the other side of the conversation. Right?
Or you're really present to everything I've shared. Um, to me that that's, that's a. Profound, uh, ingredient [01:10:00] for, for human connection.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Yeah, I just had this vision of you and have you seen these YouTube videos of, it's kind of like one carnivore versus 20 vegans and, and sort of they, they're trying, they're kind of like in this, this argumentative space or one capitalist versus 20 communists and they're, they're, they're going viral so's
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: No,
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: quite interesting.
It's so like 1, 1, 1 person in one extreme position is going up against 20 people who have the opposite point of view. And it'd be really, well you, you start to hear the points of view it gets, you know, it's a little short snippets at times.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: Yeah.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: That much time.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: have to send that to me. I have no idea.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Yeah. I'll, I'll send it to you, but it would be fascinating for suture to host in a sense to create a space where there is one position and through a series of conversations.
Folks are able to share their points of view and, and you kind of have this opportunity, kind of like a, an idea marketplace where the, the consumer and whoever's interacting with it can really be influenced in the proper way of being [01:11:00] influenced. Like, Hey, this is actually a, a point of view that has some ground to it.
Okay, I can see that, that, that point of view, but this is how I see this and it's a really interesting place. Um, not saying you have to do this, but it just came to mind of, wow, that would heal so much in our society. Being able to actually listen to receive opposite points of view and, and engage with them as well
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: Right.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: to stress test your own.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: I think it's such a, such a big thing. Um, and, and honestly, uh, something that I've been thinking about a lot in the context of, um, some sort of, uh, live gathering, uh, like I've really wanted to put together some kind of, um, music festival specifically. Designed around holding space for divergent points of view, that you have people who, who share something that you know is so, uh, provocative to you, but, but somehow in the way that the space is held and the, the guidelines provided in the structure that you're able to really receive that and, and practice with it.
Because it's, it's, it's hard. I mean,
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Hard.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: It's so hard. You know, as much as I'm talking about this stuff, it's not like [01:12:00] I don't get in arguments with people or have a hard time with certain people in my life. Um, but, but I really try to practice, um, kind of, you know, holding space for difference.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's a, it's such a wonderful exercise to engage in and I hope more people do. It's not easy.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: So
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: so hard. It's so hard. What are most looking forward to with Sutra?
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: Um, what am I most, most looking forward to Sutra? Um. I am really excited about the possibility of AI and, and I'm, I'm, I'm most looking forward to, uh, I mean, to be honest, I'm most looking forward to cracking this, um, this question of, of collective, collective intelligence of, of really being able to deliver a group experience where the participants are, um, have, have a, a [01:13:00] palpable direct experience of, of the group field, you know, in, in a way that, um, is, is asynchronous and, um, of. In some ways on, on demand that it doesn't, obviously you can go to a fancy retreat in Mexico and, and have this like, you know, deep embodied like transformational experience. Um, but, but bringing this experience of collective intelligence into, um, more common context like an organization or a group learning experience, or a community in a way that, uh, is palpable and recognizable and, and offers some sort of tangible value, um, is, is a, is a really a big part of what I'm, what I'm looking forward to, um, out on Sutra with
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Okay. Incredible, incredible. So as we begin wrapping up this, uh, episode, if you can leave with, leave the listeners with an insight, um, a tool, some thoughts on their own transformational journey, something to [01:14:00] sit with, whatever it is, what might that be?
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: How about a poem?
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: That'd be beautiful. Sure.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: right. Awesome. I wasn't, this is totally not planned, but you know, you know, I do have a printout of, of my favorite poem right here,
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Beautiful.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: I've been meaning to frame. And this poem, uh, I mean, it really speaks to, um, many of the themes that we've been talking about in, in terms of, I think the, the deeper dimensions of transformation and what it means to be in relationship with what, with not knowing, which, which is kind of an undercurrent to you were talking about earlier, right?
Is just you, you, how do you deal with, uh, the kind of, the, the wisdom of not knowing and, and operating from that in, in a world that demands you to, to know. Uh, so this is a, you may have heard of it. Um, it's a poem from St. John of the Cross. Uh, so it's, it's like, I think it'll take me 60 seconds to read.
Is that okay?
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Absolutely. Please go [01:15:00] ahead.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: To reach satisfaction in all desire. Its possession in nothing to come to the knowledge of all desire, the knowledge of nothing to come to possess, all desire to possess nothing, to arrive at being all desire to be nothing. To come to the pleasure you have not. You must go by a way in which you enjoy not to come to the knowledge you have not. You must go by a way in which you know not to come to the possession you have not. You must go by a way in which you possess not to come to be what you are not. [01:16:00] You must go by a way in which you are not. When you turn towards something, you ca you cease to cast yourself upon the all for to go from the all to the all. You must leave yourself in all. And when you come to the possession of all, you must possess it. Without wanting anything in this nakedness, the spirit finds its rest when it desires nothing. Nothing raises it up and nothing weighs it down because it is in the center of its humility.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Hmm. I cannot think of a better ending to this episode. Loren, I have so thoroughly enjoyed this conversation with you. You are somebody who has walked the walk. You're somebody who has experienced some of the lowest [01:17:00] lows that that one can experience in different rega regards. And your life is a testament to the human spirit, you know, and, and being a conduit.
To life itself and to God. And I appreciate you and for all the work that you're doing out in the world. It's, it's really a gift. Your life is a gift and I am on your team and I am rooting for you deeply. Uh, and sutras Mission deeply. And I hope folks that are listening to this go out and check out Sutra because it is an incredible platform.
I have, um, played around with it and I do think so many in our community can benefit from it. So thank you so much.
lorenz-sell_1_02-17-2026_203206: Hmm. Thanks for the kind words and I'm really honored to be in this conversation and, um, grateful that you've invited me and. Grateful to be able to share this story and, um, really enjoyed everything we've covered. So much luck to you and much love to your audience.
jonathan-_1_02-17-2026_143206: Thank you.