Phyllis Lane shares her journey of profound unraveling—losing relationships, stability, and identity—and how it led her into a deeper trust in life itself. This conversation explores what it truly means to live beyond the thinking mind and allow intuition, presence, and aliveness to guide the way. 
Many people believe that if they can just find the right plan, the right strategy, or the right path… life will finally feel stable, clear, and under control.
But for Phyllis Lane, life unfolded in a very different way.
After the unraveling of a long-term relationship, the collapse of a shared business, and the loss of many of the structures she once relied on, Phyllis found herself with nothing to hold onto—no clear direction, no plan, and no guarantees.
What emerged wasn’t a new strategy. It was a deeper way of living.
In this conversation, Phyllis shares how she learned to move beyond the thinking mind and into a life guided by intuition, presence, and trust. Through creativity, movement, and deep inner listening, she discovered what it means to live the “pathless path”—where life is no longer something you control, but something you allow to move through you.
Together, Jonathan and Phyllis explore what it truly means to let go of control, trust the unknown, and follow the aliveness of life itself.
What we explore in this episode…
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🔗 Connect with Phyllis
🌐 Website: www.phyllislane.com
📸 Instagram: @phyllislane
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phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: [00:00:00] there comes a moment where there's a shift where you're no longer a person looking at life. You are life looking at itself through you.
Oh
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: hmm
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: gosh.
Welcome to the Deep Coach, the podcast where we explore the transformational journeys that shape us and that propel us to change the world. I'm your host, Jonathan Aida, and in each episode we sit down with those who have journeyed into the depths of spiritual transformation and who are now reshaping the world through their presence and their work.
In listening to these incredible human beings, you'll find insight, inspiration, and practical tools to support your journey as a coach and as a human being. My guest today is Phyllis Lane. Phyllis is an intuitive photographer, artist, mentor, coach, and entrepreneur. With over 25 years devoted to creativity as a living practice and professional path, rooted in presence and sacred.
Seeing her work offers spontaneous, embodied creativity as medicine. A way back to what is most alive and [00:01:00] true. She uses photography, movement, writing, and intuitive drawing as contemplative practices for awakening presence and deep transformation. She's also the author of Living the Flow, an invitation to step out of the thinking mind and allow life to be the guide.
And living the flow she does. Phyllis, as you'll come to see in this conversation, is truly walking the walk, or as she may say, walking the pathless path where nothing is guaranteed and one has no choice but to trust. We talk about her traumatic upbringing, how everything she came to know fell away, including a relationship and business of nearly 15 years, and how from these pieces she began to tap into and trust her intuition.
An intuition that has brought her the life and career she lives today.
This conversation is especially pertinent to those seeking to live with greater trust and connection with life. It really is a beautiful conversation. Enjoy.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Phyllis, it is such a joy to have you here with me. Um, we were just laughing and reconnecting again after a [00:02:00] year of being apart. We got to be face to face a year ago on retreat, and we were just talking about how much joy, how much laughter, uh, we got to experience together and it really felt like every cell in our bodies were just lit up and dancing.
Uh, so it's, it's great to be reconnected with you here.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: It does, it feels really, really good. And, uh, it was like, yeah, such a joy, uh, that yeah. Such a celebration and, uh, seeing you now is like, yeah, it brings it all back. It's like, oh, yeah.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Hmm. So good. So good.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: mm-hmm. So good. So good.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: And you were, you were talking about just before we went live, that over the past couple of years you've been going through this unraveling process.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: Mm-hmm.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: of a long-term relationship and a business partnership that went along with that relationship. You had two dogs that passed away after 16 years of life.
Um,
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: Mm-hmm.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: aging parents, just so many things that are happening and have been [00:03:00] happening in your life over the past three years. We're gonna dive into all those different moments to better understand how you've been navigating it. What I'm most curious to start with is who would you say Phyllis Lane was prior to all of that happening?
So sort of like take us back maybe 20 years.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: Oh my gosh. Wow. Like, that's a great question. Um, who, who was she? Who was she? Uh, well, if I look back, um, and if I look way back, if I actually connect the dots to like the beginning, right? Uh, even back to childhood, right? Because as I've been kind of reflecting on. My journey in life. Um, I came from a fam, especially visiting, you know, with my elderly parents.
It's like, it brings it all back. But, um, coming from a family that, you know, it was like the life curriculum, um, was, [00:04:00] you know, it gave me the, the things that turned me into who I am now. And so, uh, from the very beginning, um, growing up in an environment that was, um, kind of, I say turbulent, my father had a fierce temper.
Like he, he, uh, you never knew what was gonna happen. And I think at a very young age, I developed high sensitivity and the ability to kind of tune in when things would get, you know, turbulent. And so I learned, and so, uh, sensing that and kind of in an environment where emotions were repressed, right?
The except for anger. And so you just, you didn't have feelings and it was. Things would erupt and then things were never talked about. so, that, you know, that way of living, it was like kind of, um, it denied your inner world and of the abandon, like I learned at a young age that connection meant abandonment of yourself, like of your feelings. And then in, in junior high, I was [00:05:00] bullied in school and, um, at, you know, really bullied and teacher saw what was going on and he's like, maybe you should join my martial arts class. And, um, I was like, yeah. And he, what he taught wasn't, it wasn't fighting, it was actually, um, perception. And he, he would literally move towards you without warning and you had to like. before thinking. Right? And if you thought, um, it was too late, like he would grab you and, you know, so it was the first time I learned about intuition, not as an idea, but as an actual knowing, like a sensory perception. And then next, next point on the, I graduated high school early, I'm age 16, I'm thrown right into the, the modeling world.
I sign with Ford models and right into the world of, um, let's say, you know, I won't say predators, but, uh, you know, and a, a world that doesn't really see you for who you are, right? More of [00:06:00] surface. And, and so another, another world or opportunity, uh, where, uh, being seen taught me to be a seer. You know, and I worked with photographers who, some who could see me and then some who, you know, did not, and objectified and, you know, so like connecting these dots, right?
And then I, after tr you know, being in the fashion world, uh, I remember a friend asking me, or you know, mentioning, you know, is your heart into this life? Or, you know, and this is when I was living in New York. And, um, at that moment I was like, um, no, my heart isn't in this. Like, you know, it's like the path with heart.
Is your heart in this enough? If it's not on your path, then you're not, you're not. Yeah. It's not your path. And I was like, I didn't know where my heart was. So I moved from New York and that's when I moved to Arizona. And that's when I say, um, I, at that moment I was, [00:07:00] you know, dedicated to, you know, finding my heart, right.
And. I from New York, it was a lot of external distraction. I moved to the desert. There was no external distractions. It was like, what's nothing to do here? it kind of became an inner journey. And the thing about it is that I, uh, couldn't, I had, you know, when I was traveling, I was highly, um, you know, philosophical.
I had like philosophy books in my backpack and, you know, and I, I was very well read. I could, you know, psychologically talk the latest lingo, but I could, it was almost like spiritual bypassing in a sense. I couldn't touch the feeling, right? I could, if I sat with a therapist, I could talk all day long and never, it never would go anywhere.
But the turning point came when I found art or art found me. And I started painting in my early twenties. And I, I had [00:08:00] never had a paint class. And then when I started painting. Was, um, these images started to appear like dark, like and deep grief and like, um, and like these images started emerging.
And I, and I, at first I was kind of ashamed of 'em 'cause I was, 'cause I always had to be like this kind of performer or like this positive coach. 'cause people around me were always negative, you know? But I, these images started emerging and I, I, I, I said, I was ashamed of 'em, but I also loved them.
'cause it was the first time because my inner world began to, like, I began to connect to it. Um, and at, at that particular time, um, I. Jess had started leading spontaneous creativity groups, and a woman had come over at, and she actually saw these drawings. They happened to be out, and she's like, oh my God, what are these?
And I [00:09:00] was kind of like, don't look, don't look. Uh, and she's like, oh my God, these are incredible. And anyway, she just, she inspired me to bring them to this group. And it was the first time I, I shared the truth, like it, and it was kind of like bringing the shadows out into the light. So, that became the turning point.
And I remember I cried. It was like, it was like a, uh, yeah. And so creativity became a way where I could bypass that thinking mind and go right into the heart of the matter. Right? And then at the same time, I started working with a really incredible teacher named Gabrielle Roth. She did the five rhythms and she used movement as medicine. And so, uh. Sh you know, you would arrive on the dance floor and this wasn't about doing dance steps. This was about, uh, being moved, right? And you could see where you were doing your little steps in the corner, like your conditioning, right? And [00:10:00] you, you would have the opportunity to break out of who you've be like, and, and when you start unlocking all those, like your body stores, that trauma, cellular trauma, you start unlocking it, then you start that, like the rage, the grief, it's like, so that became a way where I was able to kind of break out of the confines of, of being locked in, you know?
And so dance. And then I also intuitive drawings, right? my eyes, uh, non-dominant hand and just like not know what's gonna come out. And then these images would start emerging, right? Out of nowhere. And so, I developed all these creative tools to b to enter my own heart. And it was like the journey from the head back to the heart.
And it was, it was like the unraveling, right? The, [00:11:00] the un thawing, the, all those times when you, when you, you bit the bullet and you like, you know, got traumatized and you sucked it up and you, you know, it was like, and then allowing that to sob yourself back to life and to draw yourself and dance yourself and, and just until, until like in like the five rhythms, you dance until there's nothing but silence and you've been emptied, right?
And so that, that kind of like, in a nutshell, I know it's a long story, but it's like, and then those creative tools, right? That. I became the medicine for my own soul are the tools that I started. You know, people started showing up at my doorstep, like, um, wanting to be mentored by me or coaching. It's like what I'm, what I now am calling a muse.
It's like part coach, part mentor, part, uh, creative mirror. But, uh, it's like, you know, and using a lot of the, you know, creative tools as [00:12:00] ways to help them drop right out of the mind and right into the now and right into this, to this blank moment, which is ah, it's like where we can't hide where it's vulnerable.
It's like, ah, you know, and it, it's, it's scary to the mind. 'cause it's like I say, it's like skydiving where you jump into this unknown and, and when you jump, you let go of everything you've known. And in that unknown. It is unscripted, is uncertain. It is like, um, you're just, you're, you're just like, it's, there's no identity.
It's just like, ah. And something as you show up there, more and more, something shifts in that space where you begin to trust it, right? Like the ch opens, right? And, and falling free. Falling becomes flying. That's the shift. What used to scare [00:13:00] you. And it's, it takes a long time to, you know, you bipa, you, you keep showing up even though it scares you, right? Uh, at some point flying, right? You know that that's where you wanna be, because that's where aliveness is. That's where originality is. That's where, that's where you are. You know, you're not living life. Life is living you. You're flowing. And that feels so good. And, but you know, the journey to get there, right, is like, it's not hard to just step out of a plane, but it is. 'cause every time you enter the blank moment, every time you enter unknown, the mind is there. Like, no, you're gonna die. You're gonna, you're not an artist. You're not, no.
And it's like, and then every time you don't listen to that part, and then you step you [00:14:00] enter, you've just strengthened your intuition. You've just, you've just surrendered into the divine intelligence that will, uh, that will carry you. And as a creative, I come to trust it so much. Um, if I try to force my ideas, like what I think should happen onto the present, I block the flow and then, but I've come to know it so well that if I trust. It's like, turns out better than you imagined. Like, you're like, and people say, how'd you do that? And it's like, the truth is you're like, I have no idea. the moment was guiding you, the mo it's like the drawing drew itself. You're not the Dan, you were being danced and wow. That's, I mean is, that's, that's the flow, right?
And that is, and that's, it feels right. It's like, uh, being an instrument for divine, for, for creativity. So, yeah. So [00:15:00] that, to answer your question in a nutshell, that's like bringing it all together and it's like, now my whole job is how can I keep the channel open, right? How can I keep, you know, 'cause I say life doesn't come.
It's like it doesn't come from you, it comes through you, right? So if it, there is no you there. So someone says, you know, how'd you write your book? I, it's like, I don't know. I, I didn't write it, it, you know, because I, I was moved and I like every idea, everything that's ever happened through my life. Even com I created companies that came, was crazy at the time.
It's like, whew. it just came through and it, and you go and you're, and then you're just like, ah.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Yeah.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: And
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: you, yeah, I'm curious. I'm curious to understand, so prior to going Arizona, how internally focused were you? Meaning how attuned were you to what was happening inside of [00:16:00] you?
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: Well, I would say because of my background, you know, of how I grew up and everything, and then being in New York, I was struggling. I, I, I mean, I was disconnected, okay? So I was highly in my mind.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: I.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: And I was trying to control through the outside in, right. Whether that be trying to fix myself through, you know, I just, it was kind of like, uh, I was numb, I guess you could say. And so, um, when I moved to Arizona, it, yeah, yeah, I was, it was a return to the feeling life.
And so those years of, in New York and before that, it was like I was a performer. It was more externally, like I could turn it on, but internally, [00:17:00] like I didn't, I, I, I didn't, um, I couldn't, you know, and, and, and that was probably those times I was probably drinking alcohol or doing anything that could help. Get out of, you know, um, just release that, some of that, uh, energy or whatever. And I think when I come to AR came to Arizona too, um, and I was in a relationship, uh, that what happens when you are disconnected, uh, one can get close to you, right? You're, there's so much stuff in the way, right? And we do draw relationships to us that are like mirrors. So, uh, a lot of, you know, it's like, and that also, you know, I realized there was a lot, um, that I had to integrate, right? I was our projections and our, you know, like that, um, [00:18:00] needed integration and presence and a place where acceptance, right? And, uh, so yeah, I think so. When you live in the head, uh, you're, you don't, you're not in the heart space. You're not, you know, you're not feeling, it's, it's, it's kind of a numbing space.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Yeah. Yeah.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: in your body. You're not in your, you're not in the moment. You are. Yeah. You're just, 'cause to fully be here, uh, you know, you spend, you, you check out basically. 'cause the mo the, if you are fully here, you have to be with all this uncomfortable, like all the, the things that you've been running away from.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Hmm. In so many ways. I mean, your journey starting with Arizona and all the, you know, connecting to yourself and releasing those [00:19:00] energies and connecting to your creativity and to your sensitivity in this process is when you got into that long-term relationship and started a business. Is that right?
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: Yes. I mean, it was, yeah, in the late twenties, early thirties is when, yeah, when, uh, I had started creativity, you know, before, actually before that relationship. But I, uh, yeah. But then, yeah, but I was, you know, already like doing my own art. I was a professional photographer. I started, I was been doing photography since, since I was a model.
I was doing both, you know, so, uh, I had my own business. And then when my partner, when he came into the picture, uh, yeah, we, we created business together. So I
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Hmm.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: the creativity and he was the technology. And so it was, uh. Yeah, it was a, um, a learning journey.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: What [00:20:00] was the, the nature of the business?
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: Um, it was making handmade, uh, coffee table couture. It was called couture book.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Right.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: books that of, of your images, right. So, uh, but they were, you know, handmade and it was, um, you know, beautiful like old world, you know, binding with new, you know, the new printing, digital printing. So it was, uh, and it's the business.
We eventually sold it when we split and it's, you know, still around and, um, yeah. So it was, but that was a
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: What, what lessons have you taken from running a business with well, period, running a business, but also with a partner?
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: Don't do it. No.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: And I don't just mean romantic partner, I mean like literally being in business with another,
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: Yeah. Well,
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: it goes hand in hand there.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: together your partners,
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: That's right. That's right.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: like, [00:21:00] it's like a marriage life. You're, you're in it together.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: So true.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: so, like any relationship, right? It's, uh, you know, it is a commitment and yeah, you wanna make sure that you align right? And you have, uh, the skills to be able to, you know, like a, a relationship, be able to take responsibility for your projections and, uh, the ability to communi communicate and come back to the table and, and share, uh, to, you know, maybe say you're sorry or maybe say, uh, let's do this differently.
Or learning, you know, because like anything in life, like when you, um, you know, with business, you know, or with relationships, it's, you have money, fears you have. F responsibility, fear, like all the survival fears come in. So learning how to meet, uh, [00:22:00] these challenges. Right. And is the work, it's the work.
It's, you know, so, I say don't do, you know, don't go into business with, it's just, it's challenging because when I was working with my, my, um, ex-partner, he, you know, we just, we worked all the time, you know, and it was, it's, it was a lot of strain and we went through a lot of challenges together, you know, where, uh, our business, where we went at one point we were half a million dollars in debt and, you know, we came out of it, but it was like, you know, all those survival needs are just, are the fears of like. Pressures and it, it's hard on a relationship. It's really hard. So,
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Yeah.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: um, and I think also when I look back now as you know, now that I've had time to, you know, embody standing on my own, right. Learning how to, um, take care of I say my own garden in a sense, uh, [00:23:00] it's, when you start to become dependent on someone, it doesn't mean that you're not in, you know, interdependent.
But when you depend, uh, it's, it creates a, not a situation. It's a neediness, situ, you know? And I depended on my ex for a lot of things, and I used to get so mad at him 'cause he would say things like, you know, Google's your friend. Like, he didn't wanna help me with technology. And then I came to find out after he, we broke up that, yeah, Google is my friend.
Like, I, I love it. It's like he was really
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Yeah.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: when, you know, years later, he was. Yeah, it looks like I taught you well earlier. 'cause I was, you know, managing the technology and, uh, it was fun. I mean, uh, so you learning how to take responsibility for all the choices that you make, right? being responsible is about emotional maturity.
Right? And it's also so with the partner that you're with [00:24:00] is, it's not like you need them, right? It's like you can enjoy them it's like a, it's a choice. A moment to moment choice, a commitment, right? So it's, it's a different way of approaching a relationship. And I, you know, I had to learn it the hard way. So.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Yeah, that was gonna be my question. How aware of, I guess, the core wounds that you carried inside that impacted the relationship, and how intentional were you about navigating that in the partnership?
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: Well, I learned, know, I, yeah, I,
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: I.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: you know, even this last while I've, it's brought a lot of awareness to, you know, the patterns are so deep, you know, and what I learned, 'cause my ex, I used to call him checkout Charlie, and I was always, always, always mad at him because he was always checked out. Right.
Okay. So, and I seem to, at, [00:25:00] I've, in the, my past relations, I've, seem to attract the checkout Charlies, which are, um, you know, and this, and I have this whole analogy. Uh, I, I kind of stumbled upon it when I was coaching, but I, Charlie's are like, they're fun. They're, uh, highly creative, you know, and probably they might have addictions somewhere, but, you know, but, uh, and they're kind of spontaneous.
So, and then there's the Barbara Bossy, right? Barbara Bossy are, um, you know, trying to get, do everything for them. And, but they're very, they're more like the parent. So Charlie's more like the child, right? And they're, Barbara Bossy is like, uh, she's like, um, doing everything she can so someone, can finally be there for her.
So she's always on Charlie to show up. Barbara Bossi grew up in a family where no one was there for her. She became a parent at a very young age. She started parenting her [00:26:00] parents emotionally 'cause there was no emotional awareness. Uh, and, and maybe it, there was addiction or it was very unstable. So she had her inner child gut. Squashed. Charlie, on the other hand, probably was overly mothered, probably, um, never made his bed. You know, he, but had, had no boundaries, like never had, you know, so these are just like stereotypes. They, so two people come and, and, and probably was neglect, you know, the inner child was neglected too. 'cause there was no, uh, anyway, so they, they come together, Barbara Bossi and Char and, and Barbara Bossi, iss like, you know, no one's here for me, so she's gonna get Charlie to show up. Charlie's like, don't tell me what to do. That's his mantra. But what it is, is like there's two people that aren't, aren't there. They're not there. It's like two half people. It's a child and a parent.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Yeah.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: when I look back at my relationships, right, I was trying to get my ex to show up and [00:27:00] while I was abandoning my own inner child, okay? And when we split. I made a commitment to not abandoning myself ever again. And that shift, and, you know, and after we split, like, you know, he moved away and went right into another relationship right away. Um, and I, wanted to like, I wanted to like check out, like I wanted to say, screw it, I'm gonna move.
Like, you know, but I didn't, I stayed with, I committed to showing up for myself unconditionally for my heart, which is the child, whatever, you know, whatever was there. And I made that commitment, right? And so that learning how to, to show up for oneself, like I will be here for me and what that actually means.
So when I went home to my elderly parents, which is the system where I got the original [00:28:00] pattern. Immediately they threw me into a role of giving up yourself. Like you don't even have a, you know, and right into those original roles. And I felt when I was there, I began to feel like dying inside. Like it was like this, like, and so removing myself from that situation, I still visit and help, and I'm grateful that they're alive and everything, but I now I know how to, um, create an environment for myself where, you know, I won't abandon myself. And so that's, that's like, that's what I, I am grateful for the endings that allowed me into this deeper awareness. And the new journey is, you know, when you parent your own inner child and the inner child is your creativity, it is your, um, you know, no one. It's like we look into partners to like. [00:29:00] Get from a parent like what we never got.
So when you start to give that to yourself, you become whole, right? And, and, and then yeah, you attract someone who is whole, right? Who takes care of their self. Now, uh, if you track someone who wants you to abandon them, you know, that's like, you know, dazzling and, and like connection doesn't mean that you have to give up yourself. You can trust that you will be met.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Hmm.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: So that's, that's a shift for me. uh, I'm trusting and, you know, and I, it's, it's a holding that space, you know, it's like what we learn in coaching, right? We hold deep space for our clients, you know, and I do that not only for my coaching clients, but even my photography clients.
But when you hold that deep space for you. [00:30:00] Meaning like you show up for whatever's here and you don't bypass it, you don't spiritualize it, allow it. And that's the beginning of a new relationship of you with your own inner child. That actually, um, it will, it's like, it's the journey back to the heart space.
Heart space, which is I say is like the portal back to the
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Hmm.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: to the divine to God. Because life is a feeling, right? It's, and no one can feel for you, right? So we, it's this portal back into the feeling life, and that is where joy is. And, um, it's a practice, it's a daily practice of holding space, you know?
Um, otherwise, yeah, you become like an unhealed healer or you, you know, you're out, you know. And so my heart, when I'm here for it, it's like I'm for, I'm. The, the healing work you do for you [00:31:00] is, it's like you're holding, you're holding space for all, all hearts, right? So,
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Yeah,
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: Deep work.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: life. Life has a sense of humor because when you decided that you're gonna be there for yourself, life was like, let's see. I'm gonna take everything away from you. Everything that you've come to know, every, all the ground that was beneath your feet. Let's see how deeply you're gonna be there for yourself.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: that's
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: talk about period in time?
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: Yeah, so true. It's like I say, as soon as you say I want peace, life delivers chaos.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Right. Let's see. Let's see how peaceful you can be.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: I know. I was like, you know, uh, live in the flow. I was like writing this book and then it's like, alright, let's see really how well we do here? You know, let's take away everything that you've known.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Yes,
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: And we'll see how, you know, how you are in the unknown.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: that's right.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: you can't hold on to anything and, uh, you know, [00:32:00] it like skydiving.
You, your mind gets scared and it just, it is, it's like what I experience every time I enter the blank moment, it's, I've come to not listen to it because I know it, uh, keeps you from living, it keeps you from creating. But it's still, there's times when it, it's very active, right? And you do listen to it and it's what keeps you from not showing up and it keeps you blocked and scared and, but when you're in Survival mind, uh, it, it blocks the flow, right?
So, uh, I had to learn that like, so when I went home to my parents and wow, I. And I love them dearly, and I'm so grateful they're still alive. And there's I, and I, I'm really happy that I have this opportunity to see a lot of things right from, you know, understanding where I've come from and patterns and conditioning. It's, you know, but, [00:33:00] chaos, noise, like television loud all day long. Um, uh, my parents yelling at each other, like, I mean, I was like, when you're not around it for while, it's like, did I grow up in, it's so unsettling? And I was like, and, and the do, and they had all these dogs and they were like, and I was like, and I would find myself in the room upstairs, like trying to like practice the presence.
Like, just like, you know, like it was like life was like, okay, let's see how. What you got, you know? And I literally, you know, I was looking at it as a practice and it, it was like my spiritual temple. And when I first would go up there, it was like, I could only last a couple weeks and then I'd start, go, I call it the vortex. I get, you know, and then, but you know, Ram DA says if you, you know, you wanna see how [00:34:00] spiritual you are, just go home. It's, it's true. And I, and I, I can go home for about a month now, and I feel like, you know, but I also, yeah. I, you know, so it's, yeah. It's, it's the ultimate spiritual training.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's your parents, but you also had, uh, dogs that, that, um, passed away. You had the business that crumbled. And so what, describe that moment. So you're, you're finding yourself kind of not knowing what's next, the pathless path,
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: Mm-hmm.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: how were you relating to life in that moment? What, what, what was happening inside of you as to where you felt you needed to be next?
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: Well, I mean, I said, every time you enter the blank moment you have, first you meet, right at that threshold the mind.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Yes.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: So the mind is scared to death. And it's like going like, you'll never work where you need to figure this out. You need a plan. Where are you gonna be in five years? You know, you're, where's the money coming from?
Where are you gonna [00:35:00] make it? Look, look at you. You are already this da, you look at your ex, he's already da, da And then you try to figure it out. Try to a, you know, access your answers from the outside. Like, you're like asking, you know, what should I do? What should I do? What, you know, that's the mind.
And it's, it's terrifying. And, and you make, when you, when you're in that space, that dys reg a regulated place, you make bad decisions, right? Because you're seeking on the outside for something that's, uh. Unfulfilled on the inside and nothing on the outside will ever, you'll be a constant seeker. next place, the next person, the next, the next, the next.
Right. So I've come to know that. Okay, just like, you know, there's the mind and then I wanna enter the present. I wanna enter in slog times, I can, I'll dance, you know, dance that, um, thinker out and you know, 'cause [00:36:00] underneath it all, you have the answers. It's knowing it doesn't come from Yeah, that loud.
It comes from intuition. So in the blank space is where intuition is received and where guidance, right? And I say it's like the pathless path where, where there is no path. So for me, it's like, and no, I don't know where I'm going. The mind wants the map. Like, where am I? Where are you going? Where's the map?
Where's in the map is like. You know, somebody else's map, right? It's like, this is how you do it. 1, 2, 3, 4. So there's no method, there's no, you know, no script. No. So this is where those intuitive navigational tools, you, you know, you have to learn how to empty, right? Clear out of the mind and then tune into intelligence, right?
That deeper intelligence, that is what's beating your heart, what's guiding billions of planet, right? How do we align in there, into that [00:37:00] dynamic now into the field, right? That, so that's, that's the, that's the daily practice. That is, you know, um, and I have practices. I show up. I'm, I'm devoted because, uh, I, you can't get your answers from the external. So, the internal world, I'm dedicate every morning showing up into that space and I'm listening and attuning and, uh, practices that keep me, um, you know, um, listening and then being moved. Listen, being, that's how intuition works. It won't lay out the whole plan. It just, and I always say it's almost like you're blindfolded because it's like you listen and then you take one step, right?
But in that one step, things start to, it's like you are already unfolding, right? You're just so, and then next thing you [00:38:00] know, this shows up and then it is just, you're in, right? So, yeah, I'm a student. I fall off the path. I listen to the mind. It's like the head tripper and I trip. And then I go, and then I'm like, and honestly I've, I've taken myself, you know, during you just said, like when everything crumbled. You know, at one point when my mind was so active and I was, I was in a state of like, I was, you know, this is when I didn't even have a place to live. I was in extended stay hotels. I didn't have a, I was like, I couldn't stay at my parents. I was like, I literally drove myself skydive. I, I took myself out skydiving again.
'cause I was like, dang it, I'm gonna, you know, cellular remember this. Like, I needed to like go there again
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Yeah.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: drop out and drop in and trust in the presence. Trust in the [00:39:00] intelligence. And yeah. And, and that did, that did help. I have to say like when you face death, like death is a great teacher. Like, okay, yeah, you might die. Somehow that really, yeah, that kind of set reset me for a while, but it truly is like, um, a, a real, a daily practice, right? And, uh, aligning um, you know, kind of like a surfer, right? You, if you're out there on the wave, you have to, you have to be fully present. You have to be reading and ultimately sensing you're fully present, otherwise you get pummeled.
And, uh, yeah. it's, uh, learning how to navigate the now and, um, yeah, it's, uh, I'm devoted because, uh, it's, yeah, that's, that's the only way.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: It's the only way devotion is the right word. And so many in our folks that are listening, [00:40:00] I think wanna live that way on, on some level, but also be careful what you wish for on another level. And I, and I get it and I get it because, you know, I, in so many ways, I feel like I've lived my life that way where I don't know what's next.
I don't know what's coming. There's no grand master plan and you know, it's really one step at a time, one day at a time. And so how have you navigated that as a professional, professional photographer, professional artist, not necessarily knowing when the next gig, the next client is coming.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: Yeah. I, I, I love that question because, you know, and that's a question I get a lot from, uh, creatives that I mentor or coach. 'cause they're always like, how do I get jobs? Like right. In a, in a profession where there is no, yeah, you're not working a nine to five job. There's no security. Like, you never know when your next job comes.
Right.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Yeah.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: I, I tell them like, um, everything is relationships, right? And so, uh, in all the years of that, I've been a [00:41:00] professional photographer and artist, and even as a coach and every. always been word of mouth, right? I've never, I've never advertised, I never go out and chase and try to get right, and I, I move from a place of giving, right?
So
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Yeah.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: get scared, you know, like no work is coming in, you're not sure. Um, I offer my skills. I go contribute, I, I, I move right into a place of generosity without keeping score. It just, and that shifts at all the energy, right? And, and then over time, right? Um, those relationships on trust and like, love and care what builds, what builds the networks or builds the jobs, right? So I always say, instead of saying, you know, what's in it for me? I say, what's in me for you?
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Hmm.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: What's in me for you? And, and so yeah, the path of, of the artists where, you know, there's no [00:42:00] guarantees. Right. It's like, um, getting outta survival mind. Once again, it's back to the same practice of letting go of the thinking mind that's scared, moving into the blank moment, into the unknown, trusting even when there's periods of nothing is happening, right? Not the phone's not ringing. I mean, I've had it so many times where I've gone long stretches, right? it in my mind could be like, you're going to, it's over.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Yeah.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: work again. Or you know, it's like
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Yeah.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: I never listen to it. I just keep cultivating, keep showing up, devoted, and then all of out of nowhere a job comes in. And that one job pays for the entire year.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Yes. Yeah.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: my gosh. So. It's like, you know, you get to meet your stories along the way, right?
So your money stories, it's like this is what you've known, what you think is possible. [00:43:00] So when I say you gotta mo move from the known to the unknown, that means like letting go of your money stories, letting go of who you think you are, what's you think's gonna, what you think the economy's doing. Like you gotta, you gotta enter that blank moment and you know, I say move right into generosity and move right into flow.
Right into, into enoughness. And so far so good.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: So far, you're here at least, at least with a computer and a mirror and.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: Hey, that's, you should be surprised what I can do with minimal.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I'm the same, you know, and, and it, I, I attribute it, the feeling that I've had over the years is of being in a car with the brakes out, going 90 miles per hour, heading straight for a cliff. And every single time, every single time without fail, there's been [00:44:00] road that shows up out of nowhere
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: I
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: keep the ride going.
You know? And, and what I've, what I've come to realize for myself is, and what I've done as a practice is every single time the road shows up is I pause, I pause to say, look, look, first of all, thank you life. Thank you. Thank you, God, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: Yeah,
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: then look, look mind, look, mind, pay attention. 'cause you have to enroll the mind in this process.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: Oh yeah. Right.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: You, you're not only, are you okay? Again, look at all the times that you've been okay. When you thought it was, it was, it was gonna be the, the, the end of you. And not only just in my story, but noticing that in other people where they're, they're, you know, they're, the sky's falling, you know, code red, code red, breathe, breathe.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: Breathe.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: And, and, and I've noticed that my nervous system has become quite calm and acclimated to chaos and to points of, of, of the unknown, [00:45:00] because that is the practice. We have to enroll the mind in this. The mind's not gonna love it.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: Uh, no. The mind's not gonna, but at least, yeah. It sounds like you're learning how to allow it to settle down, like have a seat,
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Yeah.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: right? Yeah.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: We're here. We're here. We're.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: It's like, wait, and, and what you said, like coming back into the present. Right. Breathe. Come back to this moment. Where are your feet? Where, let's come back. Because truly this is it, and this is, this moment the future. And so if we learn how to Yeah, bring, come on back mind, the mind projects off into like the future. It's, it never lives in the now. Right?
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Totally.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: that's why intuition, like, okay, yeah, we, the mine's always here. It's always that threshold. But if you, you know, it's like, okay, I hear you. It's like Michael Singer, when he says you have an inner roommate. It's like,
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Yes.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: I hear, you know, he's like, I just don't listen to my inner [00:46:00] roommate. He's always like, you're gonna die. You're gonna go off that cliff.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Yeah.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: to, or like, good I hope I go off that cliff.
He's like, just agree with it. And it's like, oh, right, so, so you literally are, yeah. You learn the ways, like you said, how to navigate the chaos, right? The center of the storm. You, you have roots that are invisible, right? That are, that keep you. Uh, you know, grounded no matter what happens, and see that is, that's the way forward.
And, um, you know, and staying in that center is, is the key.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Yeah. And then I find in doing that, we then become the vehicle that life can use to fulfill whatever its mission may be in any given moment. Right?
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: true. Right? We become the instrument, like, literally, like [00:47:00] we have, we got ourself all the way. 'cause
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Yes,
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: are always like, you're gonna die and who are you to say anything and what are, you know, it's like, but sorry, we just, we just, we let go and yeah. And then we, we show up and we allow, right?
And then we're of service to whatever's in front of us with our presence.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: that's right.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: that is, know, that's life living You. Right.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Yeah.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: uh, it's, yeah. I mean, I say this in my photography, it's like there comes a moment where there's a shift where you're no longer a person looking at life. You are life looking at itself through you.
Oh
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: hmm
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: gosh.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: hmm.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: And it brings you into this divine connection. Like, you know, the beauty of all life, which is in everything and everyone Right. This beauty and it's in the present. Right. And it's, [00:48:00] I mean, it's what makes life beautiful and uh, yeah, I live for it.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: And, and I would argue that this is the biggest superpower that someone can have in this day and age because we are entering, we are in an unknowable future.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: Yes.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: It's just everything is unknowable. Like you can't anticipate what is coming. You can't prepare, you can't plan. You can pretend to, you can try to.
You can do what you can do, but in reality, we have no idea what's coming over the next 10, 20, 30 years. And so being able to settle the mind and lean into curiosity, lean in, leaning into openness,
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: Mm-hmm.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: sensing what life so for us. Yeah.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: yeah, it's like the unknowable, like you said, is like, I mean, in all reality it's always been unknowable, like
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Right.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: we've known, right?
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Totally. Yeah.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: it's just that what we've known has kind of been, it's starting to be like [00:49:00] shifting
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Yeah.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: what we've known, all those paradigms are falling away, right? And so sense, 'cause we're gone, we've gone from the information age into the intuitive age because now we have artificial intelligence that. You know, you're never gonna outthink the thinking machine, right?
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Yeah.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: what, what, what if we can't outthink it? Which our whole society was, you know, that's how do we, how do we know how to do, you know what?
We're gonna be replaced. Now this is where the intuitives, like you, you, you, is where you're center of the storm. You be here fully. It's being fully present, fully listening, fully alive. Right?
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Yeah.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: the way forward. And that's really all you've ever known. Even though you think you've known, you know, that's it.
That's right. And
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Yeah.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: that navigational, like as everything Yeah. Falls away and you know you're caught. Yeah. You wanna be working from the inside out, from your inner wisdom, [00:50:00] you know,
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: The flow as your book title suggests,
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: living the flow or letting.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: living the Flow, living the flow.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: You right. It's like, yeah, you're just, you've prepared yourself to be a vehicle to allow life to live you, and you're riding the waves, you know? And it's like, whoa.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Tell us more about this book, how it came to be and, and what the essence of it is.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: I mean, I am looking at, I like all my creative pro pro projects, they, it comes from, from nowhere, you know? It's like, uh, they don't come from me. They comes through me. So I think, like I said, when all these anchor points had been pulled out right in my life, and it was like I'd moved, you know, I was kind of in this deep unknown space.
Uh, I was just [00:51:00] reflecting on how, you know, how in my creative life when I, you know, jumped. of the plane into the unknown, how it unfolded beautifully. Right. And how it turned out better than I imagined. I just felt like, I wanted to create a companion book, not like a how to book. Like, 'cause there's no method.
It's not like this is how you navigate the flow one.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Right.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: No. So it was like, and I was, and how can you put into words what is wordless? Right. Uh, like the way knows the way. Right. And so I wanted to, it was just like intuitive, a feeling like let's create a, a companion book that maybe you could open anywhere and it would just, uh, help you navigate, uh, return you to the center, right.
Realign you and help you navigate the pathless path. Right. Where, you know, you get scared and it allows you to come back. Right. [00:52:00] And, you know, and, and, and in the book there's, it's a lot of space and, um. It's more contemplative and there's intuitive drawings, and so it's, yeah, it just, it came from nowhere and, uh, it came through
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Yeah,
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: and where it's going, I don't know,
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: yeah, yeah. As it should be. Yeah. Came from nowhere and back into nothingness.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: Yeah. Right. So I just, I trust the process and, um, yeah, it's, uh, I do, and I do use it. Like, I literally, I open up to any page and it's like the flow takes you where you belong.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Perfect.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: Perfect. It's, it, I mean, it's, and that just, that, that little, it just aligns back like, you know, kind of like what you said about when you meet your thinking mind, it's like, oh. It's like, okay, yes, let's breathe. And it allows you, you know, it's, it's [00:53:00] not like taking you, living the flow is not like. you somewhere.
It's allowing you to remember listen. To listen beneath the noise, beneath the mental, beneath, underneath, where wisdom is there, right? Your inner knowing. And, um, it really is. The shift happens when you stop outsourcing your authority outside, like, trusting the answers inside. 'cause no one outside knows your path.
No one, no one,
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Yeah.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: And so this helps bring you back to allow you to listen to your own guidance and trust, you know, wherever your path is gonna take you. And who knows, who knows?
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Yeah. You've already shared so many incredible nuggets of wisdom that, you know, this question may be, um, unnecessary, but I'm gonna ask it anyways as we wrap up this [00:54:00] conversation. If you were to leave the listener, somebody that's on their own transformational journey with a bit of advice, tips, a suggestion, anything at all that might support them as they're navigating their own unknown, what might you share?
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: The first thing that came to my mind was like, jump,
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Take the leap. Take the leap.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: take the leap and make it, you know, uh, yeah. Take the leap, right? And know that, uh, follow the aliveness.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Yeah,
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: Follow the aliveness, follow what you know, creates aliveness for you.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: perfect.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: Yeah.
jonathan-_1_03-24-2026_160321: Phyllis, you are a ray of sunshine and honestly, your life is just such an inspiration, the way you [00:55:00] live it, the way you think about it, um, how deeply you engage with life. You are the epitome of joy, and it's such a joy for me to be here with you and to have shared this space with you. So thank you.
Thank you for sharing so much of yourself.
phyllis-lane_1_03-24-2026_130321: Thank you so much, Jonathan.
jonathan-_1_08-19-2025_171450: Thank you so much for being with us today To learn more about today's guest visit our podcast landing page at www.podcast.centerfortransformationalcoaching.com. You'll find links to their website, social media, and anything else they might wanna share there.
And if you're curious to explore more about our work, our trainings, or the deep coaching approach. You'll find everything at www.centerfortransformationalcoaching.com. a new episode of this podcast releases every two weeks.
So please subscribe wherever you listen to, to stay up to date on each episode.
Until next time, stay present, embrace love, and continue sensing into what life is calling you toward. See you soon.